Another Question for electricians...

[ultrarunner]

Bypassing Meter?

I’ve seen 400 amp service with stepdown transformer direct to inside panel with a small cable tap to a meter mounted outside… always makes me suspicious if truly accurate?

All my installs are weatherhead to meter then panel… pull meter no power to panel.

 

[California]

Looks like this is the right thread to ask about the weirdness here in a 100+ yo farmhouse.

I installed a GFI outlet in place of an old twin outlet that had one side dead.

Turned on the main breaker and it tripped instantly. Went back and installed a different GFI outlet. Same thing. I think I fried two GFI outlets. Put in a normal double outlet, everything works ok and the 3-light tester shows OK.

There's a green wire at the outlet but no guarantee it is in use, everything here is pretty random after a century of amateur-farmer non permit wiring.

What do I don't know?

 

[ponytug]

Looks like this is the right thread to ask about the weirdness here in a 100+ yo farmhouse.

I installed a GFI outlet in place of an old twin outlet that had one side dead.

Turned on the main breaker and it tripped instantly. Went back and installed a different GFI outlet. Same thing. I think I fried two GFI outlets. Put in a normal double outlet, everything works ok and the 3-light tester shows OK.

There's a green wire at the outlet but no guarantee it is in use, everything here is pretty random after a century of amateur-farmer non permit wiring.

What do I don't know?

Perhaps the question is "what don't we all know?"? Do you know the GFCI outlets are fried, or just that they tripped on installation?

I would comment that three bulb testers are quick, but not perfect.

Did you check voltage at the outlet wires hot to neutral and hot to ground? Did you check the resistance neutral to ground?

Is there any chance for loose wire nuts or connections on the circuit?

All the best,

Peter

 

[old and tired]

Did you check voltage at the outlet wires hot to neutral and hot to ground? Did you check the resistance neutral to ground?

Is there any chance for loose wire nuts or connections on the circuit?...

Keep talking like that and someone might mistake you as an electrician!!!!

 

[old and tired]

Electrician here….

Thanks for your reply... So, the house is 10 years old... Modular, Nationwide (aka cheap). Are ark fault breakers "good" or should I replace them with GFCI? Money is not a problem and I can replace them. I would be fine with straight breakers and think GFCI is for wimps (but then there is "the code"...)

I will live with it another week (when I'm up there) just to make sure it's not tripping. My wife is an electrical engineer but knows nothing about this stuff (give her a mother board, she'll debug the heck out of it...)

I really want to find the root of the problem, I got time to figure it out....

 

[ultrarunner]

Perhaps the question is "what don't we all know?"? Do you know the GFCI outlets are fried, or just that they tripped on installation?

I would comment that three bulb testers are quick, but not perfect.

Did you check voltage at the outlet wires hot to neutral and hot to ground? Did you check the resistance neutral to ground?

Is there any chance for loose wire nuts or connections on the circuit?

All the best,

Peter

Probably no ground in sight… run into this a lot in older neighborhoods in the city.

That said I was required to install GFCI in bathrooms with the original knob and tube.

 

[California]

Do you know the GFCI outlets are fried, or just that they tripped on installation?

I don't know that they tripped. Rather, out at the breaker box, the breaker tripped instantly as it was turned back on. Both times. (Initial and second GFCI).

And, the GFCI Test and Reset buttons don't click. I don't know if this means damaged, or, they need current to hear a click when pressed.

I'll do the testing you suggested. Thanks.

 

[ponytug]

I don't know that they tripped. Rather, out at the breaker box, the breaker tripped instantly as it was turned back on. Both times. (Initial and second GFCI).

And, the GFCI Test and Reset buttons don't click. I don't know if this means damaged, or, they need current to hear a click when pressed.

I'll do the testing you suggested. Thanks.

That's rather more serious.

How sure are you that the line / load terminals at the GRCI outlet and the hot / neutral / ground wires are what and where you think they are?

Any chance wires were shorting on the junction box, or the adjacent outlet when the GFCIs were put back in?

I often break out a Klein wire tracer just to follow wires around when odd things happen.

All the best,

Peter

 

[California]

That's rather more serious.

How sure are you that the line / load terminals at the GRCI outlet and the hot / neutral / ground wires are what and where you think they are?

Any chance wires were shorting on the junction box, or the adjacent outlet when the GFCIs were put back in?

I often break out a Klein wire tracer just to follow wires around when odd things happen.

All the best,

Peter

The white/black/green have to be correct if the 3-led tester shows ok - no?

The wires in the outlet box have good insulation and installing the second GFCI would have bent those wires in different positions, so I don't suspect a shorting problem where I was working.

But this box is sourced from 40 ft of conduit that is run outdoors. (photo). I don't think outdoors like this is code compliant.

Everything here was half-assed by amateurs. Especially this shed converted to a guest bunkhouse in 1967. I have found white and black reversed. And 3-prong outlets with no green behind them. As I've posted before, Dad advised bulldoze and start over when he was gone. Nothing here was done right or is worth saving. Now I'm telling my kids the same thing.

In that 2007 photo I'm expanding the french drain from the guest cabin's kitchen sink when I discovered it ended in only a cubic ft of gravel. (More recently I connected that line into the septic system). Yes that Redwood tree is pushing on the cabin. (Grandma and I planted it in the early 50's).

Essentially, I'm gambling that everything here will last as long as I (pre-boomer) do. I expect a code inspector - in any of the trades - would run off screaming.

 

[ponytug]

The white/black/green have to be correct if the 3-led tester shows ok - no?

The wires in the outlet box have good insulation and installing the second GFCI would have bent those wires in different positions, so I don't suspect a shorting problem where I was working.

But this box is sourced from 40 ft of conduit that is run outdoors. (photo). I don't think outdoors like this is code compliant.

Everything here was half-assed by amateurs. Especially this shed converted to a guest bunkhouse in 1967. I have found white and black reversed. And 3-prong outlets with no green behind them. As I've posted before, Dad advised bulldoze and start over when he was gone. Nothing here was done right or is worth saving. Now I'm telling my kids the same thing.

In that 2007 photo I'm expanding the french drain from the guest cabin's kitchen sink when I discovered it ended in only a cubic ft of gravel. (More recently I connected that line into the septic system). Yes that Redwood tree is pushing on the cabin. (Grandma and I planted it in the early 50's).

Essentially, I'm gambling that everything here will last as long as I (pre-boomer) do. I expect a code inspector - in any of the trades - would run off screaming.

I'm not an electrician.

I think that a neon bulb is a fair, but not super accurate indicator. GFCIs are generally more accurate.

Does the insulation on the wire look ok?

Normally, the test/reset buttons not working is an indication that there wasn't a great hot to neutral circuit, or the GFCI outlet itself was bad. Two bad GFCIs outlets in row is...improbable. However, what concerns me is that the breaker blew, as that's basically an indicator of a direct short somewhere.

I would wonder if perhaps there is a hot wire being nicked by a sharp edge somewhere in or entering one of the boxes. In my limited experience, this sort of issue often comes down to a "trace the wire, open every box the wire goes through, use a bright light, and look for issues" type of effort.

Electricians have ways of testing the integrity of the insulation (Meggers) if the trace and look effort fails to surface anything.

Sorry not to be of any help.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

Often I find very old junction boxes too small to properly fit a GFCI…

I had a sink countertop outlet in a rented home… the pre move Section 8 inspection listed a single deficiency… non GFCI receptacle at sink counter.

This was all tiled in and the box was much too small for any GFCI and the option of a GFCI breaker did not exist.

Only solution was to remove the outlet and replace with a blank cover plate.

The tenant bought a long corded power strip with adaptor running from a wall outlet to sink counter… no GFCI and now a power strip flipping around was ok but not a permanent non GFCI receptacle 40” from the sink in a very nice 1940 custom corner lot home…

 

[Runner]

Often I find very old junction boxes too small to properly fit a GFCI…

I had a sink countertop outlet in a rented home… the pre move Section 8 inspection listed a single deficiency… non GFCI receptacle at sink counter.

This was all tiled in and the box was much too small for any GFCI and the option of a GFCI breaker did not exist.

Only solution was to remove the outlet and replace with a blank cover plate.

The tenant bought a long corded power strip with adaptor running from a wall outlet to sink counter… no GFCI and now a power strip flipping around was ok but not a permanent non GFCI receptacle 40” from the sink in a very nice 1940 custom corner lot home…

Is there any way that a GFCI breaker could be installed on the circuit in the panel, or is it a fuse box? I guess maybe even with a really old breaker panel, it might be hard/impossible to find a GFCI breaker to fit. Or if it's just a two wire system, also a no-go for GFCI breaker.

 

[grsthegreat]

Did you check out the newer thin gfci outlets available? About 1/3 less deep.

 

[ultrarunner]

Is there any way that a GFCI breaker could be installed on the circuit in the panel, or is it a fuse box? I guess maybe even with a really old breaker panel, it might be hard/impossible to find a GFCI breaker to fit. Or if it's just a two wire system, also a no-go for GFCI breaker.

Eight Fuse Box in the 1940 home and twin 60 amp pull out cartridge fuse main…

 

[ultrarunner]

Did you check out the newer thin gfci outlets available? About 1/3 less deep.

I have not… 1031 the property in 2019 for commercial…

I admit to being about 5-6 years behind most things new…

 

[Runner]

Eight Fuse Box in the 1940 home and twin 60 amp pull out cartridge fuse main…

I don't want to say it too loud, but I'm half surprised they haven't required the panel to be upgraded...

 

[caver]

But heck, at least it doesnt look something like this




View attachment 3775292

10' tap rule.

 

[California]

Eight Fuse Box in the 1940 home and twin 60 amp pull out cartridge fuse main…

FYI there are now breakers that screw in, replacing glass Edison-base fuses.

I bought a couple for a sub panel so I could respond to an insurance renewal questionaire with, 'Nope, no glass fuses here."

 

[ultrarunner]

I don't want to say it too loud, but I'm half surprised they haven't required the panel to be upgraded...

We rarely upgrade…

Some of the older neighborhood have service upgrades on hold because the 1920 poles and wires are maxed.

I can show you 1920 single family 3 bedroom homes selling for 500k with untouched 1920 30 amp electric service.

I have lived in several and never an issue… washer, dryer, refrigerator, tv, lights… no problem.

Natural Gas for hot water, cooking, heat, clothes dryer, etc…

The utility meters have brass wing nuts and 1920 install dates…

 

[ultrarunner]

FYI there are now breakers that screw in, replacing glass Edison-base fuses.

I bought a couple for a sub panel so I could respond to an insurance renewal questionaire with, 'Nope, no glass fuses here."

Now only for 15 and 20 amp circuits…

The 30 amp were regulated out of existence…