Lightning strike, well pump box failed

[Fuddyduddy1952]

A 20 gallon pressure tank should hold 5 gallons of water. When you checked and the air charge pressure was high, that is because the diaphragm is broken and there is water on the air side. Replacing that tank will only get you back to a 15-30 second run time, which isn't long enough. Your pump is working on borrowed time cycling every few seconds like that.

Instead of just replacing the tank, which isn't large enough to limit the cycling, you could add a PK1A and solve the cycling problem once and for all.

View attachment 3318210

Anytime I ever had a bladder leak, water came out the Schrader valve when checking pressure.
I'm thinking bladder tank is 30 gallon since it's not all that much smaller than a 55 gallon drum. I'll check when I have time. I'm working with contractor friend today...house drywall work.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Like @WinterDeere, I have a fondness for older machinery. I do think that the comment he wrote about temperature dictating duty cycle is spot on.

To unpack that a bit, these days different motors are designed with different grades of insulation, and different temperature ratings. E.g.

There is a bit of a quirk to the NEMA motor ratings in that different intended uses have different service factors (allowed time at maximum current draw). This differs from international norms (IEC). (Full review here for the curious.) However, nearly every modern motor of typical HP that I have seen is at least 100% service factors/duty cycle. Whether the motor will last at 100% is a different call, and gets into the use, and environmental conditions.

Side note: inverter rated motors have higher insulation levels, and often design elements such as square wire, non-random windings, different rotor construction, to function efficiently at frequencies other than 60Hz. (Or 50Hz) Speaking of efficiency, there are also grades of efficiency in motors, and if the motors is in frequent / constant operation, moving to a premium efficiency motor will save energy, and often a short ROI on the added cost.

Back to well pumps; on any given well, one wants to size the pump smaller than the drawn down to keep the pump from running dry, and then large enough to service the expected consumption in a reasonable time period, but short cycling a pump is not desirable which is why there are storage tanks, but neither is a low flow long run, as the submersible pumps need the cooling as @steve tym pointed out, but also due to energy consumption. If you have a pump running against some restriction, like a partially open valve, that is wasted work and energy.

In my experience, pump lifetime gets into usage hours, how it is used, water quality, and especially the presence of foreign matter, e.g. sand, in the water. A pump that gets slowly sandblasted is not going to have a long life time.

All the best, Peter

45 years ago I had water problems but no money. I put gloves on, disconnected pipe and started pulling 1" galvanized pipe. 80ft it looped up over into a pasture & I collapsed!
I took pump all apart and it had this stack of impeller disks that had seized. So I cleaned everything, sanded disks, all back together and tested in tub of water. It worked great!
Back in well and it worked great! For two days!
That's when I put in a new Sears pump, control box and black plastic pipe. It lasted for years, a bad starting capacitor is all I ever replaced.

 

[Valveman]

Sand will certainly shorten the life of any pump. But without pumping sand, it is the motor that determines the life. While running against a partially closed valve is wasted energy, it is no more wasted energy than slowing the pump down with a VFD. And while there is not enough cooling at really low flow when using a VFD, there is when using a CSV. Long runs as low flow do not hurt a submersible. In fact, the low flow reduces amp draw, making the motor run cooler, even at the reduced flow rate. With the drop in amperage caused when the pump is restricted with a valve, it only takes 2/10s of a GPM to cool a 2HP motor or smaller. The 1 GPM minimum built into the CSV is 5 times the flow needed for the motor to last a long time. I have a pump in a well feeding a stock tank that has been restricted to 3 GPM and hasn't shut off since 1996. Pumps like to run 24/7/365, and being restricted to a low flow rate makes them run even cooler.

But a pump submerged in 40 degree water can still overheat, if the water it is pumping is not directed to flow past the motor before going into the pump. In a well that feeds the pump from above, the motor on the bottom can boil water while pumping 56 degree water to the surface. A flow inducer or shroud is important to make sure the flow goes past the motor before going into the pump.

A premium efficiency motor will certainly save energy. But the higher insulation levels, square wave, different rotor construction, and other changes made to motors to run on a VFD are not to make them more efficient at lower frequencies, but rather to help the motor survive the voltage spikes, resonances frequency vibrations, bearing currents, and other problems created by the VFD itself. There is just as much wasted work or energy when slowing a pump down with a VFD as when restricting the flow with a valve.

Water will not come out of the Schrader on top of a tank until the tank is completely waterlogged. But the tank is causing rapid cycling long before water comes out the Schrader.

 

[WinterDeere]

On a bladder tank, water coming out of Schrader at the top not only indicates a bad bladder, but that the bladder head space has been displaced with water. This would explain the short-cycling of the pump, as without air head, nearly-incompressible water has no volume to displace.

 

[ponytug]

Answer last two posts: yes I made sure ballast tank pressure is ok. Pump is submerged in at least 10 ft of (56°F?) water so shouldn't overheat. Everything seems working fine and not sure how to make it run longer without spending lots of money.
If we open two valves it runs a few seconds...off for (guessing) 1-2 minutes and repeat. Today it's more pressure and volume it seems since I worked on it.
I'm guessing a smaller submersible pump would run longer.
I didn't check fully drained 0 psi tank pressure

It is important to check the air pressure at zero water psi. Other pressures are difficult to interpret.

All the best, Peter

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

On a bladder tank, water coming out of Schrader at the top not only indicates a bad bladder, but that the bladder head space has been displaced with water. This would explain the short-cycling of the pump, as without air head, nearly-incompressible water has no volume to displace.

True...which is why I said NO WATER comes out my Schrader valve when I check air pressure.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

It is important to check the air pressure at zero water psi. Other pressures are difficult to interpret.

All the best, Peter

I'll do that when I get time.

 

[steve tym]

If water comes out of the Schrader valve, the bladder has been bad for a long time.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

If water comes out of the Schrader valve, the bladder has been bad for a long time.

Who has water coming out of their bladder tank Schrader valve? I'm just curious to know.

 

[WinterDeere]

Who has water coming out of their bladder tank Schrader valve? I'm just curious to know.

Common failure mode, but it would take someone REALLY not paying attention to their water pressure, to ignore things long enough to get to that point.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Yes, and thanks to my accident well is working great. I appreciate the replies.

 

[Valveman]

If the tank is upside down, water will come out of the Schrader as soon as the diaphragm goes bad. But if the Schrader is on top of the tank you won't see water come out until the tank is completely waterlogged. As was said, when the tank is right side up, the pump will have been rapid cycling for a while before any water will come out of the Schrader.

 

[steve tym]

We see water coming out of the Schrader valve frequently, it usually takes the pump out with it. Ignoring a bad tank will cost you both a pump and a tank

 

[WoodChuckDad]

Maybe when planning everything, I just didn’t get things sized properly, but my pump is cycling too fast and frequent. I am about to put in a large spin filter because we have had sand in the toilet tanks and clogging diffuser on some of the faucets. I have a smaller spin filter before the boiler but didn’t anticipate the at there would be enough debris to need a filter on the cold water.
This seems like a good time to put in a 26 gallon pressure tank, to help with the fast cycling of the pump. What I see online suggests the filter after the pressure tank. That seems lime ot could cause debris to accumulate in the tank and damage it or clog it over time. I am leaning to 26 gallons because of size, cost combination. Was considering the amtrol wellxtrol tanks since they are rated for 150 psi and I am already running 70psi. Should I put the spin filter before or after the pressure tanks? This is my current setup
View attachment IMG_5378.jpg

 

[ponytug]

Maybe when planning everything, I just didn’t get things sized properly, but my pump is cycling too fast and frequent. I am about to put in a large spin filter because we have had sand in the toilet tanks and clogging diffuser on some of the faucets. I have a smaller spin filter before the boiler but didn’t anticipate the at there would be enough debris to need a filter on the cold water.
This seems like a good time to put in a 26 gallon pressure tank, to help with the fast cycling of the pump. What I see online suggests the filter after the pressure tank. That seems lime ot could cause debris to accumulate in the tank and damage it or clog it over time. I am leaning to 26 gallons because of size, cost combination. Was considering the amtrol wellxtrol tanks since they are rated for 150 psi and I am already running 70psi. Should I put the spin filter before or after the pressure tanks? This is my current setup
View attachment 3371201

Put the filter before everything, especially your pressure switch.

If you have space for larger, I would go larger, if the well has enough drawdown to reduce pump cycling. A 26 gallon tank has about 14 gallons of capacity going from 38psi to 70psi. Not to derail things, but why 70psi? The typical window is 30-50psi, or 40-60psi. Higher pressure is just lost energy, unless there is a large difference in height.

All the best,

Peter

 

[WoodChuckDad]

Originally it was 40-60. I think the CSV was spec ed for that and for 60 psi. When we moved in I noticed fast cycle times. I contacted support and they suggested increasing pressure switch so I turned it up to 68-70 psi and that helped. But normal usage of water in the house still results in more short cycles than I would like. I don’t know if that contributed to the death of the capacitor or not, but I do know there are lots of times when the pump runs less than a minute and having an increased drawdown supply should help extend pump life My mechanical room is small and that was my original reason for going with the Cycle Stop, because of the smaller footprint. There is also size and cost. 26 gallon tank is small enough to fit my available space and allow for the spin filter and I can still get around them for maintenance. Also cost goes crazy as you increase size.
If I reduce pressure switch to 60 psi I suppose I could spend less and get a tank from lowest or home depot. Those are rated max pressure 100. Warranty is much less but since I am installing it I doubt anyone will honor a warranty anyway.
But looking at sizes, My available space maxes out at 32 gallons. After that it jumps from 15-22 width and I just wont be able to move around it as well

 

[ponytug]

Personally, I would ditch the cycle stop, but that has been thrashed extensively elsewhere, and I don't want to get into it here.

If you don't have the space, I'd go with the 26 gallon tank.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Carl_NH]

David, I would go with the WellxTrol 203 32 gal - its 15x47" so would fit in that corner on the floor under your existing tank. Just plumb it in series, also with your tank Tee on the new tank put a drain valve.

Also do not put the filter before the switch and tanks - that will cause problems. Add a block of wood and a bracket to the right side of the small tank and switch where the white PEX exits the switch, Put a good mounting bracket up, and hard pipe it with brass or SST 1" if you go with the bigger filter or the smaller filters 3/4" work fine for just the house water.

A shut off valve is nice to have on either side of the filter. so you can easily change the filters.

Last - your outside water - is it connected directly at the well feed line as I recall or does it go thru the same filter? That means you cannot put a check valve before the tank/switch if you have your outside lines plumbed into the lines before the pressure tank.

 

[Carl_NH]

The WellxTrol 203 32 Gal at 30/50 has 10 gal drawdown, and at 40/60 9 Gal is about the minimum you would want for the pump to run for about a minute.

The reasons to put the filter after the switch are many - when the filter starts to plug it can damage the pump, and if your concerned about particulates getting into the tank, thats the reason for the valve to drain the tanks once a year to flush out any sediment.

We have two of the WellxTrol 203 tanks in series, and a 3/4" whole house filter after the pump/tanks/switch set for 40/60, and then a 1" large filter for outside irrigation - after the tanks too. Our well was fracked so we had a lot of drilling fines and sediment for the first 5 years - now it;s much less. BTW, our Wellxtrol are 26 years old and still fine.

 

[WinterDeere]

Personally, I would ditch the cycle stop, but that has been thrashed extensively elsewhere, and I don't want to get into it here.

It's hard to argue with the simplicity and decades-long history of reliable operation from a plain old pressure switch and expansion tank, when properly sized and configured. There are endless theories on why CSV's and VFD's should be better, but I've honestly never felt any inclination to switch away from what just keeps working reliably two decades at a time, and is an easy quick repair when it eventually reaches end of life.