Another Question for electricians...

[old and tired]

For 10 years we've put up with this "problem", hoping it would go away by itself. Best we can tell is when we do laundry and the water pump kicks in (really just guess that's when it happens) we "pop" anywhere between 1 to 6 ground fault breakers. (photo, right side; ones with check marks - ones with "X" pop constantly.)

Modular home built 2015, most of the "features" are definitely cheap. I've replace lots of things to upgrade as we go. Would replacing the (assumed cheap) ground fault breakers to better quality be the route to go?

IMPORTANT bit of information - we know NOTHING about the well (pump or depth) Another thought... could the pump be somewhat isolated. Since it's 240, moving it to the other side of the panel doesn't change since it uses both legs.

Also, all the ground faults breakers are on one side of the panel... Not sure that's an issue.
Also, NO the circuits that "pop" are not over-loaded... they barely have anything plugged in.

We have an electrician coming next week to look at it... hope to have additional information beforehand. So, any guesses why we "pop" so many breakers when the well pump kicks on??

 

[ponytug]

Those are combination arc fault breakers (CAFCI), similar to, but not identical to GFCI.

Arc-fault circuit interrupter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They do make dual arc fault and GFCI breakers.

Do you have a photo of the panel, with the front guard off?

My guess is that there is a loose connection / bad relay /bad capacitor on your well pump circuit that is causing the breakers to pop, but it might also be how the wires are routed in the panel. If everything checks out ok, you could add a 20A 240V EMI protector to the well pump circuit. I'd do that over at the pump, but I'm not an electrician.

Amazon.com: Uxcell AC 115/250V 20A CW4L2-20A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter : Industrial & Scientific

Amazon.com: Uxcell AC 115/250V 20A CW4L2-20A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter : Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

All the best,

Peter

 

[old and tired]

Thanks for your help, panel off photo...

I'm also not an electrician but dumb enough to wire up my basement and do the easier stuff, outlets, lights and switches.

EDIT: Just noticed the 3rd one down (on right) was tripped (yes, we are doing laundry!!)

 

[old and tired]

As for the well, we've been here for 20 years and we never had a problem but we anticipate one is just around the next corner!!

Our county health department isn't digitized and is arranged alphabetically by the name of the person who filed for the well permit on a index card file system.

Old house was built in the 1930's and who knows when they got the well...

 

[ponytug]

Thanks for your help, panel off photo...

I'm also not an electrician but dumb enough to wire up my basement and do the easier stuff, outlets, lights and switches.

EDIT: Just noticed the 3rd one down (on right) was tripped (yes, we are doing laundry!!)

Remember that I'm not an electrician, right?

The photo shows what I suspect your problem is. Your electrician left your neutrals on the CAFCI breakers coiled up and right next to both the monitored wires and the pump wires. Plus the electrician did not put the CAFCI neutral exactly at its own CAFCI breaker. In my mind, there is no excuse for running it up the panel, and it can certainly add to false trigger issues.

Each coil is going to act like an amplified antenna for the surge when the pump starts. I'd start by getting each one on the neutral bus in line with its own breaker. Then I would pull the coil out, extending each one to be a long "n" shape, with each leg close to itself, and the bend at the halfway point in the wire, and I would try to get them not crossing their own wires, and get all other wires away from the pump wires. Alternatively, or in addition to that, you could try moving the pump to the opposite side of the panel to relocate the pump wires farther from the CAFCI. (E.g. swap the radon & basement over.) I do think part of the problem is that the coiled neutrals are next to the wires that the CAFCI is trying to monitor. Your electrician may have other ideas on how to solve the problem.

Did this problem always exist, or just recently?

Why do you have duck tape on a circuit breaker? That seems like asking for trouble, doesn't it?

On your well, some areas require tags at the top of the well head listing details, often including which company drilled it. Companies tend to have great records as it helps them do a better job in the future. But you must have a pressure switch or a level sensor somewhere tied in to controlling the pump, right?

But yes, in my experience county records can be a pig's breakfast. E.g. Our septic was listed in the county health by its mailing address 70 years ago, when the local post office had its own custom take on RFD addressing. When I enquired, the current staff had no idea where any of the rural RFD "️ #" address were. Then again neither did the census workers for the 2010 census when the US finally matched address to GPS coordinates.

All the best,

Peter

 

[old and tired]

Many Thanks to you Ponytug; that all makes sense.

If I follow your thinking, could I re-route the well pump wires down, out the bottom of the panel to get away from the coils? Even move the breaker to the lowest breaker slot? Thinking it's more isolated down there...

Yes, been like this since the washer was installed (it was a year later after we moved in). All the electrical was done by Nationwide Homes (modular).

As for the duck tape, I did say I wasn't an electrician, either!!! So, I installed 3 outdoor ceiling fans on the deck. Problem is we get some wicked wind at our place. Those fans turned into propellers and self destructed one by one. The wires are capped off, thinking I'll put recessed lights in some day....

No tags or information at the well head on who drilled it, when we bought, the old house was already disconnected water wise but the electric power to the well was still used. the well supplied a few campers and a "playhouse" dishwasher, sink and toilet.

Also, don't ask me about the old septic tank (that information is tied to the well information!!!)

 

[ponytug]

Many Thanks to you Ponytug; that all makes sense.

If I follow your thinking, could I re-route the well pump wires down, out the bottom of the panel to get away from the coils? Even move the breaker to the lowest breaker slot? Thinking it's more isolated down there...

Yes, been like this since the washer was installed (it was a year later after we moved in). All the electrical was done by Nationwide Homes (modular).

...

Thanks for explaining the duck tape.

It's not obvious to me why adding the washer would cause the CAFCI issue. Washers aren't normally particularly electrically noisy.

Side question: Do you have two different AC units, and if so are the indoor and outdoor HVAC correctly labeled? (Indoor 60A? Just curious. I do not think it is part of your issue.)

Rerouting the pump wires down might help, but from the photo, it is not clear if that's feasible. I suspect that rerouting the wires might address part of the problem. The spaghetti wire nests of the neutrals probably also probably need to be addressed. Does your AC ever cause the same problem?

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

I second building records being a mess.

Was in escrow selling a home and the home inspector flagged a unpermitted addition, car port and second bathroom.

Sure enough the city of Pittsburg CA confirmed.

So I went to the county seat Assessor’s office and the digital record again confirmed.

I asked the clerk to pull the original paper file and said ok but it would take about 20 minutes.

The original paper file had a second page that was never digitalized and the page showed all 3 improvements with dates and permit numbers.

Went back to the city with permit numbers and confirmed all items permitted… spent a day running around to prove that in fact permits were pulled and finaled…

 

[old and tired]

You bring up a good point about the washer. We can go long periods without any breakers popping (without using the washer). The washer is one of those breakers that trips the most only occasionally (bedroom 3, 2nd up for well pump breaker).

For A/C, Only one unit, the compressor is outside, the blower motor to run the fan is inside and the emergency heat strips might be the reason for 60 amps(?)

 

[ponytug]

You bring up a good point about the washer. We can go long periods without any breakers popping (without using the washer being used). The washer is one of those breakers that trips the most.

For A/C, the compressor is outside, the blower motor to run the fan is inside and the emergency heat might be the reason for 60 amps(?)

So this makes it sound as if the problem happens when the laundry circuit has an issue, not the pump. Is that right?

IIRC, and please remember I'm not an electrician, the washer is supposed to have a dedicated breaker, and only one outlet. So for a 20A breaker to be blowing on what should be a less than 12A load is beyond odd to me. Is anything else on that circuit? Is someone ironing using the washer outlet while doing the laundry using the washer? (That would be a no-no...) If not, if it were me, I would have my electrician look at the wiring for the washer. Something isn't right.

The laundry breaker popping may be inducing enough of an arc to overwhelm those CAFCI breakers.

All the best,

Peter

 

[old and tired]

So this makes it sound as if the problem happens when the laundry circuit has an issue, not the pump. Is that right?

Nope because we can run the washer for a while before it trips the breakers, thinking once the water pressure gets low enough and the pump starts, that's what trips it.

That's A GUESS, I guess I need to baby sit the water pressure gauge and watch it to make sure it trips when the pressure kicks on the pump!!!

As for the washer being on it's own breaker, no, it's not, there is a light and a couple outlets that nothing is plug into.

Update, playing with outdoor flood lights, that trips the same breaker (3rd one on the right) that I think is the washer... Need to confirm that!!! Hang tight...

Outdoor Flood lights are on the 3rd one down on the right... which trips the most.

Washer is on circuit breaker "Bedroom 3", 2nd breakers up from the H2O/water pump breaker.

 

[old and tired]

Bedroom #3 is what the washer is on... NOT the 3rd one down on the right. That one is outdoor light (that might does have a short) and a couple of kitchen lights...

 

[ultrarunner]

Have you mapped the circuits?

It’s often a good place to start.

I had a problem where tenant did lots of cooking for her church and was always tripping breakers.

I tried to convey you can’t plug in multiple skillets just because you have outlets.

My solution in the kitchen was to change several receptacles from duplex to single… it worked…

 

[ponytug]

Nope because we can run the washer for a while before it trips the breakers, thinking once the water pressure gets low enough and the pump starts, that's what trips it.

That's A GUESS, I guess I need to baby sit the water pressure gauge and watch it to make sure it trips when the pressure kicks on the pump!!!

As for the washer being on it's own breaker, no, it's not, there is a light and a couple outlets that nothing is plug into.

Update, playing with outdoor flood lights, that trips the same breaker (3rd one on the right) that I think is the washer... Need to confirm that!!! Hang tight...

If the pump kicking in causes the washer circuit to overload, something's is not right.

Bedroom #3 is what the washer is on... NOT the 3rd one down on the right. That one is outdoor light (that might have a short) and a couple of kitchen lights...

I am sorry, but I think that you are in electrician territory here. It sounds like you have more than one electrical gremlin, and I think a bit of circuit tracing and double checking of some fixtures is probably worthwhile.

All the best,

Peter

 

[old and tired]

Have you mapped the circuits?
...

No, but it's now on the "ToDo" list!!!

So the first thing I'll ask the electrician to do, is fix the short in the outdoor lighting. Every time I turn on the flood lights, they trip... Yes, another thing I ignored for far too long. This is the 3rd breaker down on the right.

I'm going to re-read the thread - and correct any wrong statements.

EDIT: Not too many corrections needed. I plan to drop the 2 outside flood lights and see how they are wired in. Those were done "on-site" by an electrician that was older than dirt and about as smart...

He was also the plumber that past the plumbing inspection, without hooking up the 2nd bathroom shower drain!!

 

[old and tired]

...The laundry breaker popping may be inducing enough of an arc to overwhelm those CAFCI breakers....

I believe that is the case.

I also think the outdoor flood lights (which are tied to some kitchen light) does have a short and when that trips (possibly caused by the water pump turning on), that, that breaker also trips a few others.

I need to fix the short, and test the washer to see if it's still causing any problems. The water pump may or may not be the root cause (like I originally thought)...

I plan on dropping the flood light fixtures and look for burnt wire

Seriously, I can not thank you enough Ponytug for walking and "thinking" me through this issue!!!

 

[ponytug]

@old and tired You are most welcome! To me it's the joy of TBN.

All the best,

Peter

 

[old and tired]

Little UPDATE!!!

So the electrician was a no show, texted him but I was ghosted. No reply....

I tested things, the outdoor flood lights, tripped 3 times before I gave up. Did a load of laundry, tripped 2 breakers, then it tripped 6 breakers.

Opened up the flood lights, which had way too much wire crammed in the "can". I tighten the two wire nuts and crammed the wires back up in there... Wire nuts were fine, and tight... Basically didn't do anything. No signs of electrical arcing.

But that's all it took, been testing the lights several times now, no more popping the breakers, working fine!

Then we did two loads of laundry, not one tripped breaker (never had that happen before).

Is it fixed? I don't believe so... I need to pull the flood light wires down again and look closer at them but I got 19.5 tons of gravel and I've been spreading that on the road down to the creek...

Heading back to the big city and come back in a couple weeks to play around again. I might replace all those breakers.

I will update this as needed... Especially if we pop a breaker. We did look online and these breakers are "crap" and a couple of "class action" files have been started.

 

[CATRAT66]

With the problems you describe the first thing I would do is install new batteries in your smoke detectors!!!

 

[grsthegreat]

Electrician here…. Hearing all these problems….id start with cleaning up that sloppy panel. Not even sure why there are so many ark fault breakers there. Only in the last few years has the NEC required nearly everything to be either ark fault or GFCI. All manufacturers have redesigned their panels to allow the breakers to directly connect to the neutral bus so no more white wires needed to be aded to neutral buss. This really helped clean up these messy panels.

Older houses (maybe less than 20 years old?) only needed ark fault on bedrooms. Gfci required on all kit, bath, garage and outdoors outlets.

Most houses over 20 ish years old never even had ark fault breakers. I know the code was written before a reliable device breaker was even invented. When i first started installing ark fault breakers, they continuously tripped. Heck, just touching a switch coverplate and getting a static electric shock tripped the breaker. Vacuums always tripped them.they were a major pain in the butt trouble call. The first ones couldnt handle the cold weather if installed outdoors or an uninsulated garage.


In a panel wires should not be allowed to loop all over the place. We try to make panels look something like this
( not one of mine, but all mine look similar to this but with way less zip ties)

But heck, at least it doesnt look something like this