Question about hydraulics performance on different excavators.

[Hersheyfarm]

I have a kx040 I bought new last year. It’s just a hair too small. Looking at upgrading it to maybe a u48-5, or a Takeuchi tb250.

all 3 have the same hp, 39-40. Kx040, the u48, and the Takeuchi.

now my kx040 has 24.5 gpm single pump
The u48 has 32gpm single pump
The Takeuchi tb250 has 40gpm through 4 pumps, or 3 pumps and a forth for the 24 gpm auxiliary. So actually 3 pumps pumping the 40gpm.

the Takeuchi has better break out.

how does the number of pumps effect hydro capabilities with the same hp?
Doesn’t it still take the same hp to hydro flow, so wouldn’t the Takeuchi suffer from lack of power over the other machines trying to flow 40gpm?

one of my dislike with my kx040 is not being able to travel and use boom. Hydro flow gets cut in half. I blame the 24 gpm. Why wouldn’t they use the biggest pump that 40hp would pump?

 

[4570Man]

24 gpm at 3000 psi is already above the 40 hp available. The Tackuchi would have to choose between pumps or drop the pressure to half of the relief setting to get 40gpm. Personally I don’t see the u48 as a worthy upgrade and I would go for a KX-057. BTW were you the one that did the SVL75 hvac air filter upgrade?

 

[Vigo327]

how does the number of pumps effect hydro capabilities with the same hp?

They may not all be the same type of pumps. Some might be hydrostatic, some might be fixed displacement etc. As mentioned about the 40gpm at full pressure not even being possible with 24hp, one of things you might do with multiple pumps is use larger ones for circuits that require more flow and less pressure and smaller pumps for circuits that less flow but higher pressure. The larger one couldn't be pushed against a 3000psi 'head' without stalling the engine, but the smaller one can. Just examples.

Doesn’t it still take the same hp to hydro flow, so wouldn’t the Takeuchi suffer from lack of power over the other machines trying to flow 40gpm?

As mentioned you aren't really using 40 gpm anyway unless you're like rolling downhill with no resistance while using the hydraulics for some reason and running the engine at redline.

In reality the forces at the bucket are generated as much by geometry as they are by flow and pressure. GPM just gets you speed, and on a mini-x it's as much intended towards the speed of hydraulically driven motorized attachments as it is for the actual excavator itself. Pressure pushing on area is what gives you force out of the cylinder, and a larger bore cylinder will give more force at the same pressure. Then you hook the cylinder to an articulating linkage with a large 'motion ratio' ie the cylinder moves by twice as much as the bucket does, and you increase that force again. You could build a machine that pushes as hard at 500psi as another machine at 5000psim, but it's easier and cheaper to do what we actually do, which is increase pressure to DECREASE the required size of all the components.

But basically if some excavator has a bunch more GPM than another one in the same weight class, they're mostly just trying to appeal to people who are going to hang some hydraulically powered attachment off it, and only SOME of the total GPM of the machine will be available for that.

 

[dirttoys]

Depends on what pump runs what, I believe different pumps run different circuits. Usually you want to be able to move the bucket and arm without competing. Being able to walk and chew gum is rare in a mini, I have a 235 little brother to the 250, you can't really use the boom and travel, I believe the 250 is the same design.

Best,

ed

 

[Hersheyfarm]

One correction, the u48-5 is a 3 pump system. 31gpm across 2 pumps with auxiliary on 3rd?
Not sure of pressure kubota doesn’t seem to publish it.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Depends on what pump runs what, I believe different pumps run different circuits. Usually you want to be able to move the bucket and arm without competing. Being able to walk and chew gum is rare in a mini, I have a 235 little brother to the 250, you can't really use the boom and travel, I believe the 250 is the same design.

Best,

ed

Is yours a cab machine? How you like it? Any issues? The cab of the Takeuchi is a little less refined than kubotas I’ve noticed.

 

[dirttoys]

Is yours a cab machine? How you like it? Any issues? The cab of the Takeuchi is a little less refined than kubotas I’ve noticed.

2014 yes it is cabbed heat/ac.

The few others I have ran were open station, so I don't have an educated opinion on a comparison.

It has been a good machine for me.

I have replace a couple of damaged hoses, and put shoes on it. I bought it with 1250 hours on it, it is just crossing 2000 now.

AC could be colder, there are plenty of times I wished I could reach a little further, or lift just a hair more.

That said, in the size range I would buy it again.

Let me know if there is anything more specific.

Best,

ed

 

[LD1]

The number of pumps will have little effect on how the machine performs. More important is how the pumps are setup and configured.

GPM = speed. NOT power.

You are looking at upgrading from a 4-ton class machine (relatively uncommon as most MFG's jump from 3.5t to 5t machines). The two you are looking at are both 5t class machines. The differences is small. But you do say that yours is "slightly" too small.

So I would question just what about your machine makes you think its too small. Is it reach, power, weight to lift something specific? Cause just digging trenches or footings there is gonna be little noticable difference in a 4t vs a 5t machine.

The single biggest difference I see is that you currently have a conventional mini and are looking at a pair of zero tail swing mini,s. And the zero tail swing machines sit overtop of tracks that are about a foot wider and a foot longer than a comparable sized conventional machine.

Also worth consideration is what you are trailering it with. The 5t class machines are at the limit of a 14k trailer. Whereas your KX040 has alot of wiggle room and can even be towed on a 12k trailer. IF that is a concern for you or not

 

[Fixastuff]

Get them each to drop a machine off for you to demo on your farm. That's the really the only way to know how what your buying will perform. I've found machines in the same weight class a zero tail won't perform a well as one with counterswing when it comes to lifting or feeling stable without the blade down.

 

[4570Man]

The number of pumps will have little effect on how the machine performs. More important is how the pumps are setup and configured.

GPM = speed. NOT power.

You are looking at upgrading from a 4-ton class machine (relatively uncommon as most MFG's jump from 3.5t to 5t machines). The two you are looking at are both 5t class machines. The differences is small. But you do say that yours is "slightly" too small.

So I would question just what about your machine makes you think its too small. Is it reach, power, weight to lift something specific? Cause just digging trenches or footings there is gonna be little noticable difference in a 4t vs a 5t machine.

The single biggest difference I see is that you currently have a conventional mini and are looking at a pair of zero tail swing mini,s. And the zero tail swing machines sit overtop of tracks that are about a foot wider and a foot longer than a comparable sized conventional machine.

Also worth consideration is what you are trailering it with. The 5t class machines are at the limit of a 14k trailer. Whereas your KX040 has alot of wiggle room and can even be towed on a 12k trailer. IF that is a concern for you or not

I agree that the hydraulic specs is barking up the wrong tree. If you want a bigger excavator buy one that’s bigger. I also agree that a u48 isn’t really a worthy upgrade. I’d be looking at a Kx057 or for little bigger than that a Deere 60. Also a KX40 really isn’t a 4 ton machine. It’s a few hundred pounds short of the 5 ton mark. I also agree with trailering the 6 ton machine. That problem along with about a 10k price increase is why I don’t have one. You’re probably going to be disappointed looking for a mini x that can track and use the boom at the same time. But I’d go demo the Takeuchi and see if it’s better. I’ve never ran a Takeuchi mini x but the Takeuchi skid steer line hasn’t left me impressed. It wasn’t bad but I didn’t leave impressed either.

 

[LD1]

I agree that the hydraulic specs is barking up the wrong tree. If you want a bigger excavator buy one that’s bigger. I also agree that a u48 isn’t really a worthy upgrade. I’d be looking at a Kx057 or for little bigger than that a Deere 60. Also a KX40 really isn’t a 4 ton machine. It’s a few hundred pounds short of the 5 ton mark. I also agree with trailering the 6 ton machine. That problem along with about a 10k price increase is why I don’t have one. You’re probably going to be disappointed looking for a mini x that can track and use the boom at the same time. But I’d go demo the Takeuchi and see if it’s better. I’ve never ran a Takeuchi mini x but the Takeuchi skid steer line hasn’t left me impressed. It wasn’t bad but I didn’t leave impressed either.

Tonnage classes on the mini's are metric tons. The KX040 is truly a 4 metric ton class machine depending on how its optioned.
3.5 metric tons falls in at 7717#. And most of the 35 class machines with canopy and rubber are right there ~7800-8000#
4 metric tons is 8820# and most 40 class machines with canopy are right at 9000#
5 metric tons is 11000#. And most 50 class machines you see fall right between 10,600-11,200#

The KX040 is 9195. Slightly larger than 4 ton....but closer to 4 ton than 45.

Some MFG's like komatsu have a 45 class machine, and they are right at 10k.

The lines (just like compact tractors) do get blurred a bit. And sizes usually jump from 27-35-50. With only a handful splitting the difference by making 40 or 45 class machines.

I was looking for a 40-45 class for along time and gave up. Settled for my bobcat 334 (3.5t). I wanted to be able to tow on either of the 12k trailers I have without having to jump to a 14k trailer. A 3.5t machine is made to be trailerable on a 10k. The 5t machines on a 14k. The 4t or 4.5t machines just dont seem to be as popular especially used.

You can option a 4t machine up to pushing the weight of a 5 ton machine with 6-way blade, cab, steel tracks, etc. All that added to a kx040 adds 1100+ lbs and pushes it to 10,360#...which is close to the base weight of a 5t machine but it is still a 4t platform at heart.

A KXo57 is a worthy upgrade from a 4t machine....but if optioned out it puts you out of comfortable trailering on a 14k trailer.



But all of that is nitpicking and splitting hairs. The fact that going from a 4t to a 5t class machine is so small that it is almost not worth it...unless a real specific task is needed. Like lifting a certain amount of weight at a given distance that the 4t is just slightly too small for. (Like landscapers using special lifting devices and setting paver patio steps or something). Or unless a specific lift height or reach is required for a certain task.

Out in the field....just digging footers, leveling pads, trenching, etc.....What machine preforms better between a 4t and a 5t will have more to do with operator skill than machine capabilities since they are so similar.

 

[LD1]

Get them each to drop a machine off for you to demo on your farm. That's the really the only way to know how what your buying will perform. I've found machines in the same weight class a zero tail won't perform a well as one with counterswing when it comes to lifting or feeling stable without the blade down.

That would be the best option so far.

Or given the cost of the machines.....find a rental place that has the machines you are looking at and rent each one for a day.

Around here an excavator this size is ~$250-$300/day.

So spending $500 on renting the two before committing to a $60,000 purchase seems like money well spent

 

[Fixastuff]

That would be the best option so far.

Or given the cost of the machines.....find a rental place that has the machines you are looking at and rent each one for a day.

Around here an excavator this size is ~$250-$300/day.

So spending $500 on renting the two before committing to a $60,000 purchase seems like money well spent

Very true, also most dealers that don't have a demo unit will credit you rental fees if you buy their machine.

 

[4570Man]

Tonnage classes on the mini's are metric tons. The KX040 is truly a 4 metric ton class machine depending on how its optioned.
3.5 metric tons falls in at 7717#. And most of the 35 class machines with canopy and rubber are right there ~7800-8000#
4 metric tons is 8820# and most 40 class machines with canopy are right at 9000#
5 metric tons is 11000#. And most 50 class machines you see fall right between 10,600-11,200#

The KX040 is 9195. Slightly larger than 4 ton....but closer to 4 ton than 45.

Some MFG's like komatsu have a 45 class machine, and they are right at 10k.

The lines (just like compact tractors) do get blurred a bit. And sizes usually jump from 27-35-50. With only a handful splitting the difference by making 40 or 45 class machines.

I was looking for a 40-45 class for along time and gave up. Settled for my bobcat 334 (3.5t). I wanted to be able to tow on either of the 12k trailers I have without having to jump to a 14k trailer. A 3.5t machine is made to be trailerable on a 10k. The 5t machines on a 14k. The 4t or 4.5t machines just dont seem to be as popular especially used.

You can option a 4t machine up to pushing the weight of a 5 ton machine with 6-way blade, cab, steel tracks, etc. All that added to a kx040 adds 1100+ lbs and pushes it to 10,360#...which is close to the base weight of a 5t machine but it is still a 4t platform at heart.

A KXo57 is a worthy upgrade from a 4t machine....but if optioned out it puts you out of comfortable trailering on a 14k trailer.



But all of that is nitpicking and splitting hairs. The fact that going from a 4t to a 5t class machine is so small that it is almost not worth it...unless a real specific task is needed. Like lifting a certain amount of weight at a given distance that the 4t is just slightly too small for. (Like landscapers using special lifting devices and setting paver patio steps or something). Or unless a specific lift height or reach is required for a certain task.

Out in the field....just digging footers, leveling pads, trenching, etc.....What machine preforms better between a 4t and a 5t will have more to do with operator skill than machine capabilities since they are so similar.

I agree that there’s hardly any difference in a 40 and a 5 ton. A 40 vs a 6 ton like a KX 57 or a Deere 60 is a pretty big difference. There’s a pretty big difference in price as well.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Neither machine exists within 500 mile radius. They are all floating in the gulf. Dealers are flat out of all inventory and machines like mine can bring close to what it cost a year ago. So demoing is an impossibility. Any machine that shows up will be gone in 24 hours. Some dealers are out up to 8 months on estimated presales.

my current machine has angle blade/thumb so ight at about 10200. I have 14900 trailer for now, it’s a diamond c dec deck over bumper pull. I carry a extra bucket(60” I fabbed for gravel), derate to 14500 to go with my trucks 11500gvwr. I scaled the other day and my trailer axles were 13300. Total weight 24140. These machines will be a 1500# increase. I’m ok with that I just can’t pull a u55 or kx057 legally(don’t get me started). I’m staying under the 26k. I am investigating lighter trailers but it seems there is only a 600lb savings. I have a 2022 f350 11500 gvwr with a 2150 tongue rating. I get a new truck every few years(50k miles/year) and might look into the f250/ with max trailer tow package with 10k gvwr rating to move extra gvwr to trailer, currently my truck sits at 8840 with all my stuff in it. Its a crew cab long bed.

my original goal was just to get into the -5 cab. It’s a lot better in a few ways. Much better insulated and no see thru gaps in the floor. I spent a little time on a kx057-5 and liked the cab. Performance was of course great.
Then I stumbled on the Takeuchi and it’s weight vs performance. I went the other day and ran a tb260 and a tb240. Not bad, cab is no where near as nice as kubota, let alone the new -5 cab. More room, less refinement. But got to thinking about the huge flow differences. I’ve ran a yanmar and it tracks and booms just fine, vio50.
Looking at specs and type of hydraulic set ups got me curious How they increase flow with same hp and use single pumps vs multi pumps. But in the end the relief decides the strength, and flow decides ability to use that strength in multiple places at once. Would that be accurate?

so just a little background on this journey. Also, ”bigger” excavator may not be a 100%, more like the most functional with given hp and weight restrictions. I’m splitting hairs but thats fine. Its my hobby to change.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Get them each to drop a machine off for you to demo on your farm. That's the really the only way to know how what your buying will perform. I've found machines in the same weight class a zero tail won't perform a well as one with counterswing when it comes to lifting or feeling stable without the blade down.

That would never happen. Besides the closest dealer is 70 miles away there is no used inventory and they are not going to waste a brand new machine when there is lines of people waiting. 3 years ago, maybe. 2 years from now when our inevitable recession starts, maybe.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Tonnage classes on the mini's are metric tons. The KX040 is truly a 4 metric ton class machine depending on how its optioned.
3.5 metric tons falls in at 7717#. And most of the 35 class machines with canopy and rubber are right there ~7800-8000#
4 metric tons is 8820# and most 40 class machines with canopy are right at 9000#
5 metric tons is 11000#. And most 50 class machines you see fall right between 10,600-11,200#

The KX040 is 9195. Slightly larger than 4 ton....but closer to 4 ton than 45.

Some MFG's like komatsu have a 45 class machine, and they are right at 10k.

The lines (just like compact tractors) do get blurred a bit. And sizes usually jump from 27-35-50. With only a handful splitting the difference by making 40 or 45 class machines.

I was looking for a 40-45 class for along time and gave up. Settled for my bobcat 334 (3.5t). I wanted to be able to tow on either of the 12k trailers I have without having to jump to a 14k trailer. A 3.5t machine is made to be trailerable on a 10k. The 5t machines on a 14k. The 4t or 4.5t machines just dont seem to be as popular especially used.

You can option a 4t machine up to pushing the weight of a 5 ton machine with 6-way blade, cab, steel tracks, etc. All that added to a kx040 adds 1100+ lbs and pushes it to 10,360#...which is close to the base weight of a 5t machine but it is still a 4t platform at heart.

A KXo57 is a worthy upgrade from a 4t machine....but if optioned out it puts you out of comfortable trailering on a 14k trailer.



But all of that is nitpicking and splitting hairs. The fact that going from a 4t to a 5t class machine is so small that it is almost not worth it...unless a real specific task is needed. Like lifting a certain amount of weight at a given distance that the 4t is just slightly too small for. (Like landscapers using special lifting devices and setting paver patio steps or something). Or unless a specific lift height or reach is required for a certain task.

Out in the field....just digging footers, leveling pads, trenching, etc.....What machine preforms better between a 4t and a 5t will have more to do with operator skill than machine capabilities since they are so similar.

That’s interesting. Excavators are classed in metric tonne and in the lightest configuration. Open rops, no thumb or angle blade. Makes sense, so adding 1500lb of attachments doesn’t move one to the next class. The kx040 is 9020 in its lightest configuration rubber, and 10035 in its heaviest(this is subtracting the added operator weight). Add thumb and thats probably another 500lb.

 

[Fixastuff]

That would never happen. Besides the closest dealer is 70 miles away there is no used inventory and they are not going to waste a brand new machine when there is lines of people waiting. 3 years ago, maybe. 2 years from now when our inevitable recession starts, maybe.

I had to get "in line" for an machine last month. I let them them know if I liked it I would buy it and they brought it to my house for me to actually use. You never know till you ask. Cat, Ditch Witch, Takeuchi, Deer and Bobcat(I had to pick that one up) have all let me demo machines. The ones I didn't buy from told me to let me know when I was shopping for something else and they'd do it again. I wouldn't spend that kind of money unless I could actually check out it's capabilities in the type situation it will actually be used in. This was during the pandemic and the machines came with a tag inside saying they'd been sterilized.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Just for curiosity sake if anyones interested my quotes on the machines

tb250 cab/angle blade/quick attach WB bucket and thumb $66495
u48-5 cab/angle blade/quick attach bucket/thumb $70056

 

[Fixastuff]

Tb260 with thumb and hydraulic pin grabber coupler, 86,000 adding an angle backfill blade took it to 89,000.

Tb370 with thumb and hydraulic pin grabber coupler, 103,000

These are both cab units tax is included in the price.