Hydraulic Pump Upgrade (Deplorable Diesel)

[JCoastie]

I have the "fits but not recommended MT240", just curious, would a higher flow pump like that allow for lift and curl of the FEL at the same time, or open/close the grapple and curl at the same time?
I can't do both functions at the same time with the stock setup.

 

[ptsg]

I have the "fits but not recommended MT240", just curious, would a higher flow pump like that allow for lift and curl of the FEL at the same time, or open/close the grapple and curl at the same time?
I can't do both functions at the same time with the stock setup.

It may not make this huge difference but will definitely help a decent amount.

I suspect they use too big of a valve (as in, not matched to the system flow) along with possibly lack of flow metering features on the spools, which makes it harder to do 2 functions at the same time. It also contributes for the floppy bucket syndrome.

 

[Bearsixty7]

I have the "fits but not recommended MT240", just curious, would a higher flow pump like that allow for lift and curl of the FEL at the same time, or open/close the grapple and curl at the same time?
I can't do both functions at the same time with the stock setup.

I can lift and curl simultaneously on mine, It's a little tricky to position the joystick to do but it is possible. Not sure I can run the Grapple at the same time though, don't recall trying that.

 

[Avenger]

I have the "fits but not recommended MT240", just curious, would a higher flow pump like that allow for lift and curl of the FEL at the same time, or open/close the grapple and curl at the same time?
I can't do both functions at the same time with the stock setup.

It *might* help. It will depend how the valves are configured. But lets take a look at why it fits but is not recommended for the MT240.
With a hydrualic gear pump, the pump is directly tied to the engine, and therefore always turning. That turning creates flow, at the cost of horsepower.
I believe the rule of thumb is something like 1GPM = 1HP @ 1500 RPM. So this pump will take roughly 11HP at 1500 RPM off the top, so to speak.

I'm guessing that why its not recommended for that tractor. I could be wrong.

 

[Dmorf]

I wouldn't think there's much of an extra hp demand with a larger pump until it experiences high pressure. Unless a function is used, fluid is being pumped through the system with only friction losses from the hoses. There would be a higher load when a function isn't being used, but I wouldn't think it'd be significant. If the engine lugs because a function is being used, that might be a problem. I doubt it though.

I read somewhere else that deplorable didn't recommend the pump for some tractors because it would create impliment speeds that are too fast for some users. I think I'd like that personally. However, from watching how less experienced people tend to make large unfeathered joystick movements, I could see it being an issue for some.

 

[JCoastie]

I can lift and curl simultaneously on mine, It's a little tricky to position the joystick to do but it is possible. Not sure I can run the Grapple at the same time though, don't recall trying that.

I asked my dealer about that a while back with regard specifically to the grapple, this was their response...

The 3rd function is using a splitter valve that diverts the flow to the grapple, there is not enough pressure to operate both at the same time. The MT3 series is the next size that would have that capability.

Which I find odd, since it seems the hydraulic spec for the MT2 and MT3 spec are the same flow rate. I questioned that, and they didn't respond, though pressure and flow are different, and I bet the pressure is the same as well, that seems to be pretty standard around 2k.

 

[Dmorf]

The pressure relief valve on the mt3 is probably set at around 2480 psi, just like my mt3e. Pressure capability of the pump would probably be around 3000 psi. It's possible the stated 8.2gpm is at a different psi for the mt2 vs mt3, but I don't know.

The diverter valve for the FEL 3rd function on the mt3e diverts all of the flow from the bucket cylinders to the 3rd function lines. It's most likely the same on the mt3 since they are basically the same tractor.

It's been my experience that dealers know very little about the equipment they are selling and regularly state false information as if it's fact. I never trust what they say without verifying. This is a good example.

 

[rodneyn]

Yes you can use compression fittings. The tube will most likely be metric, so something like this will work perfectly. Doesn't even need flare.

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Just purchased fittings from Parker store they are rated for 6000 psi. I used them for adding in diverter they are easy to install, yes metric version used. You do need thick wall tubing for hydraulic applications greater than 1/16” wall thickness preferably stainless steel material.

 

[aczlan]

It *might* help. It will depend how the valves are configured. But lets take a look at why it fits but is not recommended for the MT240.
With a hydrualic gear pump, the pump is directly tied to the engine, and therefore always turning. That turning creates flow, at the cost of horsepower.
I believe the rule of thumb is something like 1GPM = 1HP @ 1500 RPM. So this pump will take roughly 11HP at 1500 RPM off the top, so to speak.

I'm guessing that why its not recommended for that tractor. I could be wrong.

HP needed for a larger pump would depend on the system pressure.
Most of our tractors are open center with a gear pump, the volume is directly proportional to the RPM and the pressure varies by the restriction on the output (ie: if you are using a valve).
On our L3830 when sits between 100PSI and 300PSI when its not doing anything (300 PSI in the winter on a cold start, 100PSI when its baling hay in the summer and fully warmed up.

Per the calculator at Surplus Center 1GPM at 300PSI takes 0.2HP, 10GPM at 300PSI takes 1.9HP

So, going from a 8.2GPM pump to a 10.99 GPM pump would go from 1.6HP to 2.1HP at rest.

It will take more HP at full load (13.3HP for 8.2GPM at 2500PSI vs 17.8HP for 10.99GPM at 2500 PSI), but the difference in "baseline load" is minimal.

Aaron Z

 

[Jaygyver]

I have the "fits but not recommended MT240", just curious, would a higher flow pump like that allow for lift and curl of the FEL at the same time, or open/close the grapple and curl at the same time?
I can't do both functions at the same time with the stock setup.

I have a '21 MT235He and as @Bearsixty7 mentioned you can lift/curl or dump/lower at the same time but it's a VERY narrow slot to do it tho.
It's basically unusable for any fine work, or if safety is involved.
I have a Summit 3rd function and I haven't really tried hard to test it but it seems I can't curl/clamp, etc, at the same time while using my 4in1 bucket.
From what I've read the MT230, MT235 and the MT240 are identical tractors except for the HP. I did end up with the larger LL3302 FEL also.

 

[Sstuck2]

Ever consider what the best upgrade to your tractor could be? Do you do a lot of loader work? Or 3pt work? Maybe run equipment off the rear hydraulic outlets? Well quite possibly your answer would be faster hydraulics. Deplorable Diesel, Deplorable Diesel | Deplorable Diesel, has the pump you WILL want and after install it you'll be asking yourself what took me so long.

The LS XR31xx and XR41xx and the New Holland Boomer 40/45/50/55 use a stock 12cc or 8.2 GPM pump. Sounds good right? But did you know LS and New Holland specs show the pump gross rating and not the actual flow rate of the hydraulic system? Bet you didn't. I researched two other manufacturers, John Deere 3R series and Massey Ferguson 1700 series, and both have larger implement pumps than the stock LS/New Holland but their flow rates listed in the specs are actual flow rates and not the gross pump capability. For example JD uses a 14.1cc 9.7 GPM pump rated at 9.1 at the outlet.

I got a new 16cc/10.99 GPM hydraulic pump from Deplorable Diesel and figured that a comparison of flow rates from the stock 12cc/8.2 GPM pump to Deplorable's 16cc/10.99 GPM pump would be a benefit for all of us. So, I purchased a flow meter, hoses and connectors to test the flow rates before and after. The results speak for themselves and users will be impressed. If you have used hydraulics on any of these tractors or other brands you should know that a change of even .75 GPM will be noticeable to you.

I decided to take flow rates of my New Holland Boomer 40, XR3140 hydrostatic transmission, in the stock configuration from both the loader valve and the rear outlet. Some variation will be seen but it is negligible and is the nature of me trying to capture the highest meter reading that was repeatable.

NOTE 1: It was discovered on the hydro units, due to hydraulic plumbing, that if the PTO is engaged you will see a slightly higher flow rate.

NOTE 2: Hydrostatic and mechanical transmissions have a different implement plumbing configuration so it is "possible" that the mechanical transmission could see higher flow rates in the stock configuration but they will not be significantly different. I'm thinking they will be comparable to the "w/PTO" reading below.

NOTE 3: Mechanical transmission testing of the stock pump will happen and the results will be posted here later.

Rated speed 2600 rpm, high idle/wide open 2750 rpm, and Rear PTO 2509 RPM/2545 for mid PTO (all RPM's from the service manual)

Stock flow rates of the Boomer 40 (XR3140) HST:

Stock flow rates in GPM: Rear outlet

RPM w/o pto w/pto
Idle 1.5 2
1500 3.5 4
2000 6 6.25
2400 6.5 7
2600 7 7.5
2750 7 7.5

Stock flow rates in GPM: Loader outlet

RPM w/o pto w/pto
Idle 1.75 2.25
1500 3.75 4
2000 6.25 6.5
2400 7 7
2600 7.25 7.5
2750 7.25 7.5

This shows the stock 12cc 8.2 GPM pump is 91% efficient at a flow rate of 7.5 GPM.

Deplorable flow rates in GPM: Rear outlet

RPM w/o pto w/pto
Idle 2.25 3
1500 5.5 6.25
2000 7.5 8
2400 9 9.75
2600 9.75 10.5
2750 10.25 10.5

Deplorable flow rates in GPM: Loader outlet

RPM w/o pto w/pto
Idle 2.25 3
1500 5.5 6.5
2000 7.5 8.25
2400 9 9.75
2600 9.75 10.5
2750 10.25 10.5

This shows the Deplorable 16cc/10.99 GPM pump is 96% efficient at flow rate of 10.5 GPM.
NOTE: Deplorable Diesel website rates their pump at 10.6 GPM and the results validate that claim as there could be a margin of operational error to my testing that .1 GPM should be considered an insignificant difference, within a margin of error, between my results and their claimed rating.

The results show that there is a flow increase throughout the RPM range with the Deplorable Diesel pump verses the stock pump. At idle you will notice a faster 3pt hitch and faster loader but at 1500 RPM and above you will really notice the difference. Same results will be for any implement you attach to the tractors hydraulic outlet.

On the Deplorable Diesel website, they note, "greatly improves loader/bucket cycle times and as a bonus almost complete eliminates the bucket flop the LS tractors often suffer from."

They also note what tractors the pump will fit:

Fits LS XR3135, XR3135H, XR3135HC, XR3140C, XR3140HC, XR4140, XR4140H, XR4140HC, XR4145, XR4145H, XR4145HC, XR4150, XR4150H, XR4150HC, XR4155, XR4155H, XR4155HC. (This includes the comparable New Holland/Case version of the above tractor models)

Fits but not recommended for LS XG3135, XG3135H, XG3140, XG3140H, MT235, MT235H, MT240, MT240H. (I believe this would apply to the New Holland WorkMaster).

At the end of the day am I happy with the pump upgrade? Yes, I am extremely happy with the upgrade. We all buy these tractors to do work and doing work faster and more efficiently is what it is all about. If you have an XR tractor, this pump should have been stock.

I did not address a how to replace the pump because it is pretty straight forward but if you are not comfortable with doing something like this have a professional assist you with this. Just make sure you keep everything clean as possible. Here is what you will need:

1. 8 gallons of hydraulic fluid (some fluid will remain in the system).
2. Hydraulic filter(s)
3. Hydraulic pump sealing washers and o-rings (suction and pressure lines)
4. Hydraulic pump (comes with the gear case gasket).

Follow the instructions Deplorable Diesel includes with the pump and you should be good to go. Start to finish it took me about 4 hours to complete.

Does anyone know how to get in touch with deplorable diesel? Website no good. Another deplorable diesel around now that knows nothing about these hydraulic pumps.

 

[PCABE5]

I don't. The website is down so I'm not sure if it is a server issue or they are out of business.

 

[51allis]

I don't. The website is down so I'm not sure if it is a server issue or they are out of business.

Sent you a PM.

 

[n5ad]

so I must have waited too long to get one of these pumps? does anyone have any updated infomation on the company? deplorable diesel.com?

 

[mike525]

Same here. Watched the site for a long time and wish I’d have just pulled the trigger. Site seems to have been take down in the last year or so.
If anyone has any info, I’d appreciate it too.

 

[51allis]

Same here. Watched the site for a long time and wish I’d have just pulled the trigger. Site seems to have been take down in the last year or so.
If anyone has any info, I’d appreciate it too.

Yes the website is down. No longer offering them. So what can be done? IN my case, I have an LS XR4046 with the Shibarua 2.2L 4-cyl diesel. So I started looking for similar tractors even from New Holland (LS Mitron made some of New Holland and Case tractors too) with the SAME engine. I used tractordata.com and I found out that the New Holland Boomer 4060 had the same engine BUT with more flow (12 gpm vs 8 gpm on my tractor). I then went to Messicks and looked for the hydraulic pump for the NH 4060 and found the part # for it. The main issue when looking for higher flowing pumps is the shaft compatibility (10T shaft) and mounting bolt pattern. So far it looks like the only modifications would be on one side of the pump where I would have to remove hard lines (original pump has just a "thread in" and put in an adaptor and go to rubber hydraulic lines. Surpluscenter.com has pump adapters and BSPP ones too. Its not a direct fit, it would bolt on etc. but the one hard lines would have to be modified or removed and changed. It can be done, I have not bought the pump yet as I need my tractor for this growing season, will probably do the pump change this coming winter season when the tractor is not needed. Hope this helps all readers.

 

[51allis]

Also, if anyone reading this and my above findings on the compatibility of putting a NH Boomer 4060 hydraulic pump upgrades your LS or NH tractor with the Shibarua N844 from 8 gpm to the 12 gpm NH Boomer 4060 pump, please try and do a write up. Thanks much.

 

[alexpops]

Pity NH didn't do the same thing when LS switched to the LS Mtron engine. Same flows from what I see.

 

[JohnT3383]

Question to PCABE5:
since I have an XG3140, the comment, "Fits but not recommended for LS ..., XG3140" makes me wonder why.
Please explain!
Thanks,
John

 

[alexpops]

Too much pump for the available HP. You would rob the HP from other uses & potentially overload the engine. 31XX ran 35-40 HP/41XX ran 45-55 HP off the same engine (so splines would fit). I think the 31XX also had a slightly less capable loader so maybe more chance to tweak something.

Based on the fact that the 31xx and 41xx series use the same engine, the pump (and lots of other parts) was probably spec'd for max size based on the 31xx and underpowered for the 41xx series. LS didn't spec a bigger pump as a cost cutting measure since it's cheaper to build/purchase a single pump across various models, rather than optimize each model. GM/Ford/Chrysler did that a lot too.