Thoughts on this used welder?

   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#61  
Whooo Hoo!.. got her going! Now I gotta say.. You have guts enough to do that, I bet with a little help you can hook up that box and and put in a 50 amp breaker.!

It ain't a question of guts. Just of know-how. And my neighbor says he's got that, so I reckon you're right. My service panel is 100% full, so I'm going to need to get some piggyback breakers to free up a couple slots. I'm tempted to wire in a backfeed breaker for my generator while I'm at it...

Now it's just a question of coming up with the spending money. That may take until the 15th... or until I get some expenses reimbursed... or until I convince my partner to agree to pony up out of some other budgetary category. Seriously? Do we need groceries and gas in the car? I gotta get welding so I can put some pics up on TBN!
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #62  
Yes.. all current flows between the 2 phases.. L1 and L2.. (or Line 1 and Line2 connections) No ground necessary for operation, but is necessary for safety. In a regular 115 volt receptical, you have a neutral and a line (either L1 or L2 depending on which slot the breaker is placed in) this gives you 115-120 volts nominal depending on your 2 phases coming in. the 220-230-240 volts between the phases.
James K0UA

Im not an electrician, but i thought the legs were the same phase, but have potential between them because the center tap out on the poles is grounded.

You could look at how your dryer is wired up and duplicate something similar for your welder.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #63  
Understanding 220 or 240 volt Electrical Circuits

To understand how a 240 volt (also known as 220 volt) household circuit works you should first know a little bit about how a regular 120 / 110 volt circuit works. If you are at all familiar with residential electrical wiring then you probably already know that in most cases appliances, and fixtures connect to three wires:


1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
2) A white wire called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit.
3) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.

When the circuit is in use current is "pushed" through the fixture by way of the "hot" wire and then to ground by way of the neutral, and unless something goes wrong the bare ground wire doesn't do anything except to remain ever vigilant in case of a problem.

Since house current is alternating current the actual direction that the electrons flow reverses direction 60 times per second (60 cycles). Put another way, the hot wire has a negative charge alternating with an equal positive charge, and the polarity of the hot wire reverses 60 times per second.

Now for the quick explanation of 240 / 220 volt house current; Appliances which use straight 240 current (such as electric water heaters, or rotary phase converters) also have three wires:


1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
2) Another "hot" wire which may be blue, red or white (if it is white the code actually requires it to painted or otherwise marked one of the other colors, but often it is not) which also carries current in to the fixture.
3) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.

That's it, no neutral. Now, if you are paying attention, then you are probably wondering "If there isn't a neutral wire then how is the circuit completed?" The answer is that when one hot wire is negative, then the other is positive, so the two hot wires complete the circuit together because they are "out of phase". This is why 240 volt circuits connect to double pole breakers that are essentially two single pole breakers tied together. In the main panel, every other breaker is out of phase with the adjoining breakers. So, in essence 240 volt wiring is powered by 2 - 120 volt hot wires that are 180 degrees out of phase.

I previously mentioned "straight" 240 volt appliances, but there is another class of 240 volt equipment; some appliances (such as clothes dryers and ranges) use 240 volt current to power their main function (drying clothes or cooking food) but use 120 volt current to power accessories such as the clock on your stove or the light inside the oven, or the digital readout on your dryer controls. That is why some 240 volt circuits have four wires:


1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
2) Another "hot" wire which is red, which also carries current in to the fixture.
3) A white wire called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit for the 120 volt accessories only.
4) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.

At one time, the code allowed for one insulated wire to function as both ground and neutral in 120 / 240 volt combo circuits, but now all such circuits must use the 4 wire scheme. This is why your new dryer (or electric range) might have 4 prongs on its plug and your old dryer receptacle only has 3 holes. In which case article 250.140 of the 2005 N.E.C. (National Electric Code) allows for the "pigtail" (the cord and plug assembly) to be changed to match the old 3 wire receptacle as long as certain conditions are met. The National Electric Code allows that, but your local code might not, so check first, or even better yet make a deal with the appliance dealer to do it
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#64  
At one time, the code allowed for one insulated wire to function as both ground and neutral in 120 / 240 volt combo circuits, but now all such circuits must use the 4 wire scheme. This is why your new dryer (or electric range) might have 4 prongs on its plug and your old dryer receptacle only has 3 holes. In which case article 250.140 of the 2005 N.E.C. (National Electric Code) allows for the "pigtail" (the cord and plug assembly) to be changed to match the old 3 wire receptacle as long as certain conditions are met. The National Electric Code allows that, but your local code might not, so check first, or even better yet make a deal with the appliance dealer to do it

I was talking about this with my dad last night, and told him, "If it's got 120 in it, it has to have four wires." He said, "No it doesn't. The ground can be used as neutral to derive 120 from 240. Look at your dryer. It's only got three prongs." I had to admit that he was right. This resolves the question. My dryer (post-2005) probably has four lugs, but I only bought a three-prong cord when I got it because I only had a three-prong receptacle in my house. Maybe I ought to look up NEC 250.140 and see what those "certain conditions" are. Also, maybe I ought to check my dryer's owner's manual. I'm guessing that, if you use a three-prong plug, you're probably supposed to bond the dryer's ground lug to neutral to allow the chassis to be grounded. I probably followed the manual when I installed it, but it can't hurt to be sure.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #65  
I was talking about this with my dad last night, and told him, "If it's got 120 in it, it has to have four wires." He said, "No it doesn't. The ground can be used as neutral to derive 120 from 240. Look at your dryer. It's only got three prongs." I had to admit that he was right. This resolves the question. My dryer (post-2005) probably has four lugs, but I only bought a three-prong cord when I got it because I only had a three-prong receptacle in my house. Maybe I ought to look up NEC 250.140 and see what those "certain conditions" are. Also, maybe I ought to check my dryer's owner's manual. I'm guessing that, if you use a three-prong plug, you're probably supposed to bond the dryer's ground lug to neutral to allow the chassis to be grounded. I probably followed the manual when I installed it, but it can't hurt to be sure.

Thing is, what you can get by with and make work, does not always meet code. Older houses will often have the neutral and ground wires all bonded at the electrical panel. I am not an electrician either, (nor do I play one on TV:))

James K0UA
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#66  
Well, that all goes back to those "certain conditions," doesn't it?
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#67  
Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only
where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in
the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges,
wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,
clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of
the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be
connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following
conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase,
3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase,
4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG
copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded
conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE serviceentrance
cable and the branch circuit originates at the
service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of
the equipment are bonded to the equipment.

I suspect it is point 4 that I need to check on--that is, if the dryer has four lugs, is the ground lug bonded to the neutral lug.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #68  
I didn't read all of the posts but if you are limited to a 115v circuit and a 20 amp breaker, There are new 115/230volt stick tig units out there that have Power Factor Correction built in. This will enable you to get over 100 amps output from a 20 amp 115v recepticle. Check it out. At 100+ amps, you can do a lot of stick welding.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#69  
Picked up a box of supplies from a guy off Craigslist. Paid $40 for a hood, slag hammer, gloves, cotton jacket, two boxes of 7018 and a box of 6011. Still planning for the 220 outlet before I can really get started.

The supplies also came with some soapstone sticks. What are those for? The 7018 is low-hydrogen, which means it's supposed to be stored in an oven, right? I don't have an oven, of course. What should I do with it?
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #70  
Man that sounds like one he!! of a deal!:thumbsup:

Soapstone is to write on steel, concrete floor, etc, etc.
Yes 7018 is suppose to be kept in an oven. But only if you're doing code work! Or if you are going to be welding fairly thick material. Just keep them in a dry place, a lot of people keep them in the house on top of the hot water heater. Below is a link to some testing I did with 7018.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/welding/211904-7018-break-test.html
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #71  
Picked up a box of supplies from a guy off Craigslist. Paid $40 for a hood, slag hammer, gloves, cotton jacket, two boxes of 7018 and a box of 6011. Still planning for the 220 outlet before I can really get started.

The supplies also came with some soapstone sticks. What are those for? The 7018 is low-hydrogen, which means it's supposed to be stored in an oven, right? I don't have an oven, of course. What should I do with it?

The soapstone is for marking on steel. you will notice not a lot of other things work very well, expect maybe a blunt sharpie.
Now the 7018, If is is still good, and not sat out too long in a damp enviorment put it in one of those harbor freight orange welding rod holders. it is sealed up pretty good with a rubber gasket.. It will be OK for your work.. wont meet code, but you are not doing code work, and neither am I. If it has sat out for too long or gotten wet,.. oh well.. If the rod is rusty inside... well peck off the flux and use the rod for something.. still pretty good steel, just not a welding rod anymore.. What I do is get a fresh small batch of 7018, and put them in the holder right away, take out what I am going to need quickly and seal it back up again. it seems to work for me.. I get good welds.. Don't start off with the 7018.. it is harder to get going, and can be very hard to re-strike (start back up). You can do one of several things to make the re-strike work better: you can fling the rod as soon as you break the arc.. to let blob of "stuff" fly off onto the floor.. not highly recommended. You can file the end of the rod before you re-strike, or you can do what I do, break the "corn" off of the end with my thumb (gloved hand) before re-strikeing. But all that said 7018 are a little harder to learn on than say 7014 or 6011 or maybe 6013,, I am not a big fan of 6013, as it is a low penetration rod, but I keep some 1/16 inch 6013 for that purpose, and they are easy to tack up with also. Then weld the joints with 7018:) Get some 3/32 7014 too to practice with, they make a broad weld bead, and you must turn up the heat a little more and move faster, but they run pretty smooth. Don't buy too much rod at one time.. until you settle in and your skills develop. Plus fresher rod is always good, and 7014 do not require an oven either. 6011 are good for AC or DC and make a little rougher bead but will penetrate dirty metal if you have too.. of course all rods weld better with clean metal. You need to keep some 1/8 6011 around for use on that heavy stuff that might be dirty or rusty. You can use your higher AC settings too with this rod, and you can cut off metal with it if you dont care what the cut looks like.. Just turn it up on AC :) and start poking holes.

Welding Rod Keeper

James K0UA
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #72  
Over the last few years I've played with several different brands of 6010, and 6011 rod.
With the same joint design, same welder settings, (amps, arc force, hot start) I found Hobart's 335A 6011 to be the best penetrating rod of all of them. Funny thing, Hobart's PipeMaster 60, (6010) is the worst:confused:. But it has the easiest slag removal!
 

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   / Thoughts on this used welder? #73  
Had a lot of fun reading this thread. Nice to see you got the welder working and its a keeper. Nice also to see how much help James and Shield Arc were.

You are going to have a lot of fun with your welder. Something to be said for knowing that some projects and repairs are now within your reach.

I'm tapping into my dryer outlet for 240v but fortunately, most of my welding is with thinner metal so I've been able to get by using 120v (my everlast welder is dual voltage) and 3/32 rods. 220v will give you a lot of latitude on what you can tackle.

Cheers!
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #74  
most of my welding is with thinner metal so I've been able to get by using 120v (my everlast welder is dual voltage)

Now you need to upgrade to a scratch start Tig torch! ;)
 

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   / Thoughts on this used welder? #75  
If it is stricktly a ac welder, you can get 7018ac rods which will weld almost evrything. good luck
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#76  
Just so you know, I haven't forgotten about this thread. I'm currently pulling together money to buy the parts for the 220 receptacle. Once I've got that, I'll document the install, and then get some beads run. I'm really excited about it, but the wallet comes first.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #77  
Joshua: just a word of warning:

I "THINK" that all your homes electrical outlets will be bonded together by the bare ground wire, and as such, so are all your metal appliances

so, as you are using your dryer, and it has a 120v function, such as a timer or something, then it will (I think) be energizing all your appliances. If you happen to touch, say your Toaster's bare metal, while filling the sink with water, and lean on the metal faucet, you may be completing another circuit in "Parallel" and get a shock. If this shock crosses your heart you could fibrillate....

perhaps someone else who knows more about this can clarify, and perhaps I am wrong.... but that is how I understand it.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#78  
I don't know what you think I'm going to be doing, but it will all be according to code, so I don't think there should be any problems.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder? #79  
what I meant was, if your dryer has an exemption, and is using a bonding/ground for a neutral, be aware it may be energizing your whole house via the ground circuit.
as you wrote about your Dad's comment: The ground can be used as neutral to derive 120 from 240

I recently helped a guy do some wiring, and we found the same issues... had to kill the main to eliminate any feed.
 
   / Thoughts on this used welder?
  • Thread Starter
#80  
what I meant was, if your dryer has an exemption, and is using a bonding/ground for a neutral, be aware it may be energizing your whole house via the ground circuit.

That is the case. My dryer has a three-prong outlet, and the dryer's chassis is bonded to neutral/ground. But I'm sorry to say, I still don't understand what you're talking about. I just don't have sufficient background in household wiring to really comprehend. So if you want to explain it some more, be my guest. I don't see how the dryer could be "energizing the whole house" unless there was a fault in the house's grounding. Otherwise, any current placed onto ground/neutral should go immediately to ground, not to the rest of the house. But if there is a fault in the house's grounding, there is going to be a whole lot more wrong than just the dryer.

But let me take a step back. Everything in the house is compliant with NEC. So it seems like any safety issue should be minimal, no? I mean, that's the whole point of the NEC, right? Additionally, if the dryer is creating a potentially unsafe condition, how will the installation of the additional 220 outlet affect that?
 

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