Electric service to barn

[fishpick]

Fishpick,
The way you described your wiring plan is the recommended way.
I do not recommend putting water in the same trench as the electrical and I doubt that anyone else will.

And here I was thinking I could flow the water inside the wiring conduit - keeping the wires cool and also getting service out the the barn - all in one run! (this is so a joke - don't for a second think I'm being serious)

Farwell - I think you are right... but it's just silly really... once the trench is filled in - and a water line is run 5 feet away... and this thing called rain happens... and then - there is this groundwater thing that happens...

I know - I know - it's code - and there are likely lots of good reasons...

Looks like I'll be digging up another part of the yard... my wife LOVES this tractor board...

Thanks for all the help and insight!

 

[6sunset6]

HMMM I have never come across anything in the code about water pipes in the same trench as electric. I know they don't like phone right next to electric . I think if the electric is in conduit ( which by the way does not have to be buried as deep as direct burial cable ) I think it would be ok . Put the water pipe deep 42" or 48" and put the electrical conduit at 24" .
If you want phone throw that in with the water pipe.
Here is why I think it's ok. If the water pipe is plastic it does not matter and if the water pipe is copper it should be tied to the earth ground anyway.
Side fact, The reason copper pipes are tied to earth ground in the house is not to ground the electrial system , it's to ground the water pipes incase a hot wire hits them someplace.
But to be really sure call your electrical inspector and ask. If you do not have an electrical inspector call your local building inspector and ask who to ask. You relly need the electrical inspector to sign off on it anyway other wise if something happens your fire insurance is not valid. wow another side fact. I used to know all this stuff right up front, now it comes back in bits and pieces.

 

[6sunset6]

Still thinking I think the main reason they are not put in the same trench is that if you lose one you have to dig up both. I kind of think sub service to a barn does not matter much but really check with the local inspectors. They tell you exactly what they want to see. Oh yeah Inspectors don't always want the same thing. In this case the elctrical inspector would call the shot I think.

 

[LBrown59]

Fishpick,
The way you described your wiring plan is the recommended way.
I do not recommend putting water in the same trench as the electrical and I doubt that anyone else will.

Once the back filling is done every thing is in the same tranch-ditch anyway.

 

[woodlandfarms]

The county is putting all of the homes on our street onto an LUD (Local Utility District). They will be burying the water and the electricity in the same trench. I do believe there is a separator of sand. I am also not sure if they got a variance for this due to the crazy nature of the road that services us.

But Yahoo! No more downed powerlines (3 to 4 times a winter from all the trees in our hood).

Carl

 

[Eric_Phillips]

Fishpick,
The water and electric are going in my barn next week. I can let you know then what they did. This would be in Walworth.

 

[MikeD74T]

I took a little different route with my barn. I upgraded my meter base and directly fed a 100 amp disconnect for the house & a 200 amp disconnect for the barn. Wasn't expensive to do & I can isolate power to either building without affecting the other or having to pull the meter & get resealed. It also eliminates that 4 wire thing. The disconnects are outside & lockable. Power Co gave me the new meter base free & swapped the feed over for free as well. Biggest advantage is having both on one meter eliminates that pesky "business rate" that comes with a separate meter. MikeD74T

 

[jacobweaver32]

I have a similar project coming up myself where I will be doing exactly the topic of this thread. So thanks for all the great info upfront, fish did all the question asking so all I had to do was read. However, I have a couple more questions.

1. How can I tell the limit of my service. I believe I told Ohio Edison to put in a 250A over a 200A at install because I was considering a heated pool down the road. But, I dunno what they did. Is there a way I can get this information other then calling them?

2. For those pool owners and installers out there.... how much power do I need to run all the equipment e.g. heating, filtration ect. equipment for a good size inground pool? I want to put this equipment in the barn and I am not sure if 100A is enough to power my needs in the barn and the pool together. (FYI.. largest equipment in the barn maybe a large air compressor or a medium welding setup). If 100A isnt enough with some decent margin... what would be suggested?

Thanks

 

[fishpick]

Fishpick,
This would be in Walworth.

This would be where I'll be doing it... so - please do tell!

 

[Eric_Phillips]

Fishpick,
I haven't forgotten but they have not been out yet to finish the barn. I think I am on the bottom of a long list. The excavator has a big job that he will get $1000 for every day he finishes early. So my contractor is having problems getting him to come out and finish the job.

Anyway do you know of any electrical code issues since it is a barn? I keep trying to get hold of Norm but he is always out of the office. How much building is really going on in Walworth that he needs to be out inspecting so much?

Eric

 

[LBrown59]

Fishpick,
I haven't forgotten but they have not been out yet to finish the barn. I think I am on the bottom of a long list. The excavator has a big job that he will get $1000 for every day he finishes early. So my contractor is having problems getting him to come out and finish the job.

Anyway do you know of any electrical code issues since it is a barn? I keep trying to get hold of Norm but he is always out of the office.
1*How much building is really going on in Walworth that he needs to be out inspecting so much?

Eric

***************
1*I just finished running Elect. And phone lines from my garage to the storage building and a sign post down in the front yard.
No permit, inspection or notification required.
Norm would be out of work around here.
Ah a free society - I love it !

 

[podagrower]

I have a similar project coming up myself where I will be doing exactly the topic of this thread. So thanks for all the great info upfront, fish did all the question asking so all I had to do was read. However, I have a couple more questions.

1. How can I tell the limit of my service. I believe I told Ohio Edison to put in a 250A over a 200A at install because I was considering a heated pool down the road. But, I dunno what they did. Is there a way I can get this information other then calling them?

2. For those pool owners and installers out there.... how much power do I need to run all the equipment e.g. heating, filtration ect. equipment for a good size inground pool? I want to put this equipment in the barn and I am not sure if 100A is enough to power my needs in the barn and the pool together. (FYI.. largest equipment in the barn maybe a large air compressor or a medium welding setup). If 100A isnt enough with some decent margin... what would be suggested?

Thanks

Your main breaker, first one after the meter, will be the limiting factor for the size of service. It should be labeled or embosed on the handle with 150, 200, 250. If you have 2 main panels, then you would add the two mains together for the total.

Pool service size. The largest I have ever run for a residential pool is 100 amps. I think the largest heat pump for pool heating pulls 50-60 amps and most pool pumps pull 20 amps or less. There is an extremly handy chapter in the NEC about derating for service size. In other words, not every motor, compressor, light, welder will be operating at 100%load all the time. Of course, you need to be an electrical engineer to understand the NEC, and it is written in language that would make Shakespeare kill himself.

 

[fishpick]

HA HA - I was wondering that too... for as high as the friggin school taxes are - I figured they could have a couple inspectors!
I check every morning to hear what it is they do for you.
Code issues - I can't get a clear answer on this one... some people have suggested you need an inspector to "sign off" on the line to the garage... others have suggested that since it's just another circuit off the existing service (since that's what NYSEG said) - you don't need an inspection - just stick to code for cable burial...
And I concur - after you dig around in this for a while - you start to get the distinct impression that the electrical code is a closely guarded secret that only people who get paid $80/hr to tighten wire nuts are allowed to know!

 

[6sunset6]

I will repeat this but it is of course IMO Any electrical work must be inspected by the Electrical Inspector, nothing to do with the
Building Inspector. Even if you do not have a Building Permit you still need an Electrical Inspection. Fire Insurance . In most places you do not have to be a licensed electrican to do your own work. Actually in most places you can do work for other people with out a license. The Inspector wants to see the open trench before the backfill. If they don't see it they can make you dig it up. I have probably had 20 inspections done. Rough it it ,call them, fix what ever they tell you to fix, ask them any questions you have . They are very helpful and feel better if they see you know what you are doing and want to do the right thing. The only thing I ever had to fix was a phone cable running in the same stud holes as romex. Had to pull it out and put it in it's own set of holes. I did not argue just did it even though the code says all cables in the same conduit ( and what is a line of hole but in interrupted conduit) must have the same voltage rating as for the highest voltage. I did not even look, just pulled it out. Made the guy happy the next time he was over.

 

[Eric_Phillips]

Sunset,
I hear you but you live somewhere other than rural NY. Out here all there is is the building inspector. He does it all. If I lived a mile west in the next county then I would have my pick of inspectors for each trade.

 

[fishpick]

Eric -
Actually I'm Walworth mailing - Town of Macedon taxes... Ganada Schools...

Anyhow - I called the town - no permit needed for the work - BUT - the do recommen an electrical inspector to come out and give me a sticker on the new sub panel in the bar... so if it burns down - I'm safe.

SO - I have a list of inspectors who will sign off on the work for fire underwriting if you would like them - PM me with a fax number and I'll get you a copy... or cal the town.

Since I'm doing it all myself - I will be "confirming" my plans, wire gauges, conduit depth, and other information with them prior to starting work... then have them out for the final inspection as well... It will add a hundred or so to the project - but it will be well worth it in the long run.

 

[bones1]

Fishpick, how bout an update on your wiring project, with pics of course.

 

[fishpick]

bones1 - We moved on the 24th... so my wife has been keeping me unpacking!
Also digging out the old flower beds...
Anyhow - the only picture I would have so far is the 135' role of #2 Alu. 3 wire cable in the garage on the floor with a whole slew of conduit!

After talking to the certified electrical inspector - he's happy with me going with 3 wire - bonding the neutrals and ground on the panel in the bar - 2 barn grounding rods - and a continuous loop of ground cable... I prefer that because the 3 wire is a) cheaper b) lighter c) easier to pull d) all of the above... I picked D.
Also - I prefer not having to float the neutral...
And - he's letting me use the conduit already run - yippie!
So - no pictures... just a few materials waiting for my wife to tell me "we are moved in"!
I'll keep you posted!

 

[6sunset6]

Wow that's interesting. Also in violation of the NEC. But never argue with the inspector. From a practical point of view it probably does not matter much. There will be potential differences where there are not suposed to be any.

 

[bones1]

I was curious because I just this week ran underground service to my barn.I also used 2/0 alum, much cheaper,in conduit '145 from house.The best way for me to do it was to get a "farm meter" or double lug meter box and replace the existing one on the outside of the house.You use the same glass meter but there are a bottom set of lugs in the box to tap for the barn.Three runs of 2/0 alum, no ground wire, it's considered new service, two ground rods at the barn to a 100 amp main breaker panel in the barn.Pulling 100 amps from the transformer,not the panel in my basement.Just another way to do it.