Electric service to barn

[fishpick]

I know this is a rather common topic - but I'm looking for the application specific advice and resources I can turn to for exacting info...

I have a 200 amp panel in the house...

I have a barn that's going to become a shop that' going to require about 150 feet of cable (wire) between it and the panel in the house to make things "light up".

In the barn there will be a big 220V compressor, a 220V stick welder (maybe some day a nice 220 MIG), 220V table saw, and a bunch of other shop tools...

It's 1 - 220V thing running at a time.

Questions are:
How big of a breaker should I put in the 200amp panel in the house for barn service?
What gauge wire runs the 150' from the house panel to the sub out in the barn?

Other thoughts and considerations appreciated.

 

[whodat90]

I don't know how it is where you are, but I just built a barn and the power company brought me a new 200a service for ~$1 a foot from the pole. Ended up being $250, they brought in a mini excavator and trenched 2' deep from the pole to the barn, laid the cable, backfilled, and cleaned up their mess. I don't think I could have bought the wire, much less dug the trench, for a subpanel from my house for that kind of money.
whodat

 

[schmism]

For my utility to run 200A service wire underground it is $9 per foot.

I set a new pole and mounted my meter and a 200A disconnect to it.



There is a 60' run of 4/0 AL triplex that runs to a 200A main pannel in the barn.


From there i have a 150' run of #2 AL triplex (100A) that feeds the single wide trailer aka house.

The largest size "breaker" that i know of that you can put inside a normal pannel is 100A... i picked up all my materials (except the service disconnect) at lowes.

4/0 AL triplex was ~$2.50 per foot
#2 AL triplex was ~$1.80 per foot.


After its all said and done it has cost me ~$1000 to redo the power to my property.

 

[Jaybr]

I also have a seperate 200 amp service in my barn/shop. I never measured the distance to the distribution box, but power company trenched the cable and connected the service for around $250

 

[woodlandfarms]

I THINK what you are pondering is just running a 8 or 10 guage 220v line from your panel in the house to provide some sort of power at the barn. I don't get the sense you are trying hook into your main at the pole and run to the barn (w/ 2 guage). Codes are different all over so you have to double check. I guess you could put a breaker in your panel (30 or 50 AMP) like they do for an AC unit and run 220 to the barn. It is a bit of a long run. I doubt it would be to code but you never know. As a poor mans solution it should work but I would think running 2 guage over and doing it right the first time would be a better solution...

We plan to do something similar to power a greenhouse. But it is a low draw situation...

Carl

 

[schmism]

im my area Ameren (the power supplier) has been repeatly flogged nearly to death over the last 18 months by 3 seperate storms that left the STL metro area out of power for 3+ days (some areas were a week pluss) twice.

As such they are hemorging cash to rebuild the infustructure they failed to properly maintain in the first place... (instead handing out fat dividens to the people that matter the most to them... the share holders of the private utility)

as such, they are rolling out HUGE rate increases in both IL and MO and are no longer "giveing away" services such as service connections etc for "nearly free" cost.

They charged me $125 to swing the existing overhead service 60' from the house to the new pole i set. Took them all of about 10 min to do.

 

[SPIKER]

I did my own new service to the barn too, and only to find out the power company would have put it all in for cost or less as their cost is discounted greatly over buying it at lowes/hd prices... oh well it is in now

mark

 

[fishpick]

While the 200 amp panel in the barn with it's own service connect might be a nice idea (and is something I will call the utility about Tuesday) - the 1500 foot run from the road to the barn - even at $1/ft is not gonna happen...
Also - the main line to the house has my very own personal transformer in the yard - $300 for that puppy... Now if the utility can tap off the transformer and bring that to the barn - it's still 600 feet.

Hence my "poor mans" solution of taping off the existing panel the right way and getting service to the barn.

 

[Eric_Phillips]

What you are planning for your barn is similar to what I am doing now. I am putting up a barn for the wife's horses that will also have tractor storage in half. I plan to have lights and hook up my welder out there. A 100A subpanel off your main service should be more than enough power at the barn. I am going to run a 100A breaker off the main panel to feed the subpanel in the barn. From the subpanel you can run what ever lights and outlets you want.

 

[flusher]

I know this is a rather common topic - but I'm looking for the application specific advice and resources I can turn to for exacting info...

I have a 200 amp panel in the house...

I have a barn that's going to become a shop that' going to require about 150 feet of cable (wire) between it and the panel in the house to make things "light up".

In the barn there will be a big 220V compressor, a 220V stick welder (maybe some day a nice 220 MIG), 220V table saw, and a bunch of other shop tools...

It's 1 - 220V thing running at a time.

Questions are:
How big of a breaker should I put in the 200amp panel in the house for barn service?
What gauge wire runs the 150' from the house panel to the sub out in the barn?

Other thoughts and considerations appreciated.

I decided to use an outdoor load center with a Square D weatherproof circuit breaker box.

For the 220V/200A service I have 4/0 copper cable for the hot sides and 3/0 copper cable for the neutral. These cables run in 3" dia PVC conduit buried 24" deep. Total length is about 330 ft from the utility pole to the CB box

The garage/shop has 220V/100A service, 100A circuit breakers in the outdoor load center, 2/0 copper hot sides and 1/0 copper neutral also in 3" dia conduit. Total length is about 170 feet from outdoor load center to garage/shop.

There is a circuit breaker box in the garage with 220V/30A breakers and several 110V/20A breakers.

Hope this helps.

 

[woodlot]

I have 4/0 copper cable for the hot sides and 3/0 copper cable for the neutral. Total length is about 330 ft.

The garage/shop has 2/0 copper hot sides and 1/0 copper neutral. Total length is about 170 feet.

What was the cost to do that???

Man, I sure wouldn't announce that in public, you'll have those unruly copper theives digging up your yard. You sure thats not AL wire?

 

[Cliff_Johns]

For the 220V/200A service I have 4/0 copper cable for the hot sides and 3/0 copper cable for the neutral. These cables run in 3" dia PVC conduit buried 24" deep. Total length is about 330 ft from the utility pole to the CB box

The garage/shop has 220V/100A service, 100A circuit breakers in the outdoor load center, 2/0 copper hot sides and 1/0 copper neutral also in 3" dia conduit. Total length is about 170 feet from outdoor load center to garage/shop.

So,
for 200A @ 330 ft, you're using 4/0 Copper
for 100A @ 170 ft, you're using 2/0 Copper

That seems backwards to me?

Cliff

 

[LoganWildman]

Cliff,

Why would that be backwards? 4/0 is bigger in diameter than 2/0 so that would be appropriate for the additional current me thinks.

Alan

 

[6sunset6]

well I did this all new 11 years ago. Brought down 7800v primery underground to an on the ground transformer. 400amp meter pan on a panel feeding 2 200 amp outdoor breakers. One for the house, one for the barn. They asked me why, I said if the barn burns down ,shut off the breaker and I can still live in the house. As a vol fireman I learned all about cut off all power to a burning building immediatly. It does not get turned back on so fast. The secondary feeds to both buildings was 4/0 aluminum in 3" plastic conduit. The primery was the strangest thing I ever saw ,single core #2 alum with about 1" of insulation around it and seven bare # 12 alum wires wrapped around that. Turns out the return is earth ground . Transformer takes 1 phase 7800vac and makes 2 phases 180d apart 220 to each other and 110 to ground common with neutral. Did everything myself except set the ground transformer and hook the other end of the primery to the pole out on the road. I am 600 ft off the road. voltage drop at load was too much for 220,hence the 7800 volt primery. I think you can oversize the wire to handle the drop if the drop is not too much, but 600 ft is a lot.

 

[LBrown59]

What you are planning for your barn is similar to what I am doing now. I am putting up a barn for the wife's horses that will also have tractor storage in half. I plan to have lights and hook up my welder out there. A 100A subpanel off your main service should be more than enough power at the barn.
I am going to run a 100A breaker off the main panel to feed the subpanel in the barn. From the subpanel you can run what ever lights and outlets you want.

What size wire are you going to use for that?

 

[fishpick]

I talked to my local "expert" here (Crown Electric) after the utility told me (and I thank NYSEG for the honesty) - "You are nuts to put in dedicated service - at commercial rates - but we would be more than happy to do it for you!"

So - here's what I'm planning on - 100AMP breaker in the main panel in the house (honestly didn't know they went bigger than 50 in the double throw configuration - cool!)... 2/0 for the run from the breaker to the barn (about 150' +/- 30 feet) - outside it will be inside 2" conduit... 3 wire run - 2 hots and 1 neutral.
In the barn - there will be a copper ground line run to 2 - 6' grounding rods - 6' apart with a continuous loop back to the sub-panel.
Obviously 100 A sub - with both 220 and 110 circuits off of it.

Only question I have left (right now) is - anything wrong using a 100A "main panel" from Lowes as the sub... they have a deal right now on a scratch and dent unit that comes with 4 - 20A breakers... or - must a sub be a sub?

 

[mudcat]

Only question I have left (right now) is - anything wrong using a 100A "main panel" from Lowes as the sub... they have a deal right now on a scratch and dent unit that comes with 4 - 20A breakers... or - must a sub be a sub?

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[podagrower]

I talked to my local "expert" here (Crown Electric) after the utility told me (and I thank NYSEG for the honesty) - "You are nuts to put in dedicated service - at commercial rates - but we would be more than happy to do it for you!"

So - here's what I'm planning on - 100AMP breaker in the main panel in the house (honestly didn't know they went bigger than 50 in the double throw configuration - cool!)... 2/0 for the run from the breaker to the barn (about 150' +/- 30 feet) - outside it will be inside 2" conduit... 3 wire run - 2 hots and 1 neutral.
In the barn - there will be a copper ground line run to 2 - 6' grounding rods - 6' apart with a continuous loop back to the sub-panel.
Obviously 100 A sub - with both 220 and 110 circuits off of it.

Only question I have left (right now) is - anything wrong using a 100A "main panel" from Lowes as the sub... they have a deal right now on a scratch and dent unit that comes with 4 - 20A breakers... or - must a sub be a sub?

One thing I can never remember on suppling power to a separate building on the same property is whether you have to pull in a ground wire also--but it looks like you have this covered with the ground rods. As far as using a "main panel" is concerned, I would suggest to make sure it has a main breaker installed. Some panels have a main breaker factory installed, some are main convertable ( you buy a main breaker that bolts in ), but even if this is not available with the panel you are looking at, you can put in a breaker (100a in this case) and "back-feed" it. That means landing the wires in the lugs of that breaker so that it can limit the current flowing to the panel (or eliminate it in case of a big problem).
In any case, the helpful people at Lowes should be able to show you what you need to do.

 

[Sully2]

I talked to my local "expert" here (Crown Electric) after the utility told me (and I thank NYSEG for the honesty) - "You are nuts to put in dedicated service - at commercial rates - but we would be more than happy to do it for you!"

So - here's what I'm planning on - 100AMP breaker in the main panel in the house (honestly didn't know they went bigger than 50 in the double throw configuration - cool!)... 2/0 for the run from the breaker to the barn (about 150' +/- 30 feet) - outside it will be inside 2" conduit... 3 wire run - 2 hots and 1 neutral.
In the barn - there will be a copper ground line run to 2 - 6' grounding rods - 6' apart with a continuous loop back to the sub-panel.
Obviously 100 A sub - with both 220 and 110 circuits off of it.

Only question I have left (right now) is - anything wrong using a 100A "main panel" from Lowes as the sub... they have a deal right now on a scratch and dent unit that comes with 4 - 20A breakers... or - must a sub be a sub?

Home depot has been selling 20 slot Square-D boxes...with a 100 amp main in them AND 5...20 amp 120 breakers included for $58. I just bought one 2 weeks ago.

You dont NEED conduit the full length of your run. I used direct burial (#4 in my case) and ran it in conduit until I got away from the house and deep enough underground..and then ran it in an open trench. Bonded the box to a single ..8 ft long grounding rod driven down to within a foot of being totally buried.

 

[Cliff_Johns]

Cliff,

Why would that be backwards? 4/0 is bigger in diameter than 2/0 so that would be appropriate for the additional current me thinks.

Alan

Sorry, I was thinking 4 or 2 AWG. I was thinking that mostly because I would have thought that for 100A @ 170 ft, would have been #2 (or maybe #1), not 2/0 in Copper. I'm not knowledgeable about these things, but 2/0 seems like a lot of extra copper. Does going 170 feet really drop that much to make you go to 2/0?

In any case, it's my mistake,
Cliff