Opening up a spring with a track-hoe

[pacerron]

The rock is left over from my driveway paver project. I used it as the base and compacted it and then put sand on top of it, leveled/sloped it then tapped in/set the pavers and then used polymer sand to bind it all together. Well, the first 500, I still have 12,000 to lay after I finish the last 160' of curbing.

Kyle the water is flowing from all sides, I can't really pinpoint a specific spot. Is this how a spring flows?

It seems like the clay has fingers of sand running through it in it and the water is following through the sand fingers, straw size.

Don,
This will really sound like a dumb question/questions on my part, at this point of your project, but your latest pictures want me to ask if the top of your 5' ring that is now temporarily set is your intended full water level of the pond and if so, is that the spill over point of the pond at some point on the bank?
I keep wanting to reference the white plastic pipe with the blue cap shown in your pictures before digging to the hole you are preparing to dig but the pipe
hasn't been in any of your recent photos since the trac hoe was there.
I thought the place you are putting the culvert was basically below where the pipe used to be?
I realize the pit you are digging for the culvert stems from Jim saying something like.... too bad he didn't dig a 9 foot deep hole for a spring box.
It sounds like your answer and question about the water oozing out of the clay in straw sized sand holes ( to Kyle ), means the water is oozing out of the 6 foot sidewalls above and around the top of your 5' culvert piece.
If so, what are your plans to keep the sidewalls from eroding or plugging and
is the real purpose of the culvert then to act only as a mud/sludge catch basin for the seep that you intend to pump out from time to time? You must be going to dam off the culvert area from the pond so the seep can't go directly to the pond and have a pipe leaving the side of the culvert where the water has become clear of mud and sand to fill the pond?
But then you talked about letting the cows have access to the pond, which in a short time will make the bottom a muck hole again where they stand.
I guess I better just shut-up and be one of those lurkers that see what happens, rather than trying to help.
Ron

 

[txdon]

Pacerron, The PVC pipe in the first pics was a stand for a solar panel and was on the other side of the pond. It has been removed. The plan was just to clean the pond out with the track-hoe and be finished. But then Jim mentioned about a culvert and that started another realm of projects that seem to be mushrooming.

I bought a 30" culvert 6' long this morning that I will use. I will level the top of the 30" culvert so that it is above the spillway. The large culvert ring will be raised slightly and filled with gravel for a solid platform leading to the 30" culvert. There ares several other options available and I'm thinking of new ones daily. Monday when the digging starts I'll figure it all out.

Do I need to drill holes in the side of the 6' culvert on the bottom half and then put rock on the outside?

Keep your suggestions coming!:thumbsup:

 

[pacerron]

Do I need to drill holes in the side of the 6' culvert on the bottom half and then put rock on the outside?

Keep your suggestions coming!:thumbsup:

Don,
Thanks for the explanation. I combined 3 of your pics and think I've got it now. It looks like the field has always been draining to that area.
I can see a need for the holes and rock around the outside of the culvert on the bottom half if the 6' culvert will be somewhat above the present 5' ring grade, which it looks like it needs to be. In fact I think you should have rock fill between the culvert and the hill where the water is seeping out. Some folks like to shoot the holes in the culverts with a rifle for fun and saves a lot of drilling.
Jim probably has some ideas about placing the culvert and the holes.
I showed my wife the pictures, and being an old farm girl plus a practicing microbiologist for 40 years before retirement, she is having a fit about your stone.
We know you said it was gravel, but just to see what happens, please take
a cubic foot of it from your pile and put it in a tub. Cover it with 3-4 inches of water and stir the stone with a stick a few times every few hours. See if the water gets murky white. Let it set overnight and see what it looks like.
If you have a PH meter you might check it with that too.
I was going to sign off the site, but you said, keep coming. As one guy said,
"you better watch what you ask for."
Time for a nap!
Ron

 

[bindian]

Don,
Thanks for the explanation. I combined 3 of your pics and think I've got it now. It looks like the field has always been draining to that area.
I can see a need for the holes and rock around the outside of the culvert on the bottom half if the 6' culvert will be somewhat above the present 5' ring grade, which it looks like it needs to be. In fact I think you should have rock fill between the culvert and the hill where the water is seeping out. Some folks like to shoot the holes in the culverts with a rifle for fun and saves a lot of drilling.
Jim probably has some ideas about placing the culvert and the holes.
I showed my wife the pictures, and being an old farm girl plus a practicing microbiologist for 40 years before retirement, she is having a fit about your stone.
We know you said it was gravel, but just to see what happens, please take
a cubic foot of it from your pile and put it in a tub. Cover it with 3-4 inches of water and stir the stone with a stick a few times every few hours. See if the water gets murky white. Let it set overnight and see what it looks like.
If you have a PH meter you might check it with that too.
I was going to sign off the site, but you said, keep coming. As one guy said,
"you better watch what you ask for."
Time for a nap!
Ron

Ron,
What does the Mrs. think it is? Limestone?
hugs Brandi

 

[pacerron]

Ron,
What does the Mrs. think it is? Limestone?
hugs Brandi

Brandi,
Don said it was not limestone. The concern is primarily for the cows he has watering there.
If the pond is used for home or livestock drinking water, the use of minerals (alum, gypsum, limestone) is not recommended. The purity of the mineral substances is unknown, and its application to the pond could result in the inadvertent addition of undesirable substances.

Our pond has a clay base and was murky for 2 years until I put a roll of hay in it. It cleared up in a month.
Ron

 

[jinman]

Don, if I was looking for gravel that water would penetrate easily, I'd use pea gravel. That's what well drillers use up here around well casings before sealing the top with concrete. It should be available at materials places and in small quantities up to a yard at many landscapers. Of course, you aren't exactly surrounded by a metro area there in Lee County. You might check with a well driller to see if they have some they will sell you. For water penetration, I've never seen them use anything else, but that may not be the case where you are. I'd at least check to see if you could get some river rock type gravel or pea gravel. The pea gravel is round and individual pieces won't bind together with small amounts of clay like flat chips might.

Do I understand that you are putting a smaller culvert inside your larger one? I think that's a good idea. I also think if you had a trash pump, you might be able to pump water in between the culverts and wash out silt so that the inner culvert drops down as silt is removed. Did I mention that you'll probably get really dirty/muddy too?

When you get your culvert into final position, wait to see how high the water will rise inside it and then cut holes about 6" below the maximum static level. You might even get better flow by going 1' below. You just want to have the maximum flow while still having some amount of silt dam. That's my unscientific opinion. It will be the best tradeoff between flow and silt-in protection.

 

[bindian]

Brandi,
Don said it was not limestone. The concern is primarily for the cows he has watering there.
If the pond is used for home or livestock drinking water, the use of minerals (alum, gypsum, limestone) is not recommended. The purity of the mineral substances is unknown, and its application to the pond could result in the inadvertent addition of undesirable substances.

Our pond has a clay base and was murky for 2 years until I put a roll of hay in it. It cleared up in a month.
Ron

So that place that sales bales of barley straw online might not be selling snake oil? It really cleared it up that fast? How big is Y'alls pond? Was it just prairie hay or maybe coastal?
hugs, Brandi

 

[txdon]

Anything for the wives. The stone and water test is commencing. I used pool water with a known PH. I'll check the PH with a pool PH strip in the morning. The water is a murky white, but the washed stones have a grey-ish color. Temp 106.

Is this stone good or not for a percolating filter, it looks like it does have sharp edges?

 

[pacerron]

So that place that sales bales of barley straw online might not be selling snake oil? It really cleared it up that fast? How big is Y'alls pond? Was it just prairie hay or maybe coastal?
hugs, Brandi

Brandi,
Just Ohio grass hay a little clover and maybe timothy as well back then.
The hay grass you see growing around our pond in the pictures I have posted, probably in Texas Heat or Jim's Silt to pond post; I forget which at the moment. Our horses live the life of luxury with not much work so Alfalfa would be too hot for them; meaning they would have to be very limited in amount compared to grass.
The hay in the pond was something I had heard about but was really an accident when it happened. I discharged a roll from the baler on the hill above the pond and it took off rolling ending up in the pond.
Ron

 

[pacerron]

Anything for the wives. The stone and water test is commencing. I used pool water with a known PH. I'll check the PH with a pool PH strip in the morning. The water is a murky white, but the washed stones have a grey-ish color. Temp 106.

Is this stone good or not for a percolating filter, it looks like it does have sharp edges?

Don,
It might work since it has various sizes and shapes... but you can't beat river gravel or pea gravel as Jim mentioned since it is roundish and smooth and won't clog up or compress like sharp cornered stone.
You said you compacted the ramp for your hoe a little. Take a bucket of water and poor it gently onto the stone and see. If you poured it on river gravel or pea gravel ( at least the Ohio type ) it would run right through.
Call your county extension agent or a gravel company and ask them which is preferred.
Try some stones in a bucket of your clay laden water to see what it looks like
and then let it settle.
Easier than working in the heat!
BTW you did a great job showing how to remove your backhoe. I wish mine were that easy. If you haven't put it back on yet I'm sure the owners of like units would appreciate pictures of how you do it.
Ron

 

[bindian]

Brandi,
Just Ohio grass hay a little clover and maybe timothy as well back then.
The hay grass you see growing around our pond in the pictures I have posted, probably in Texas Heat or Jim's Silt to pond post; I forget which at the moment. Our horses live the life of luxury with not much work so Alfalfa would be too hot for them; meaning they would have to be very limited in amount compared to grass.
The hay in the pond was something I had heard about but was really an accident when it happened. I discharged a roll from the baler on the hill above the pond and it took off rolling ending up in the pond.
Ron

Goodness no, don't dunk Alfalfa. Our horses got a little Coastal Bermuda each day with their feed ration. My show sheep got a little Alfalfa each day with their ration on Hen Scratch and Corn.
hugs, Brandi

 

[txdon]

Pacerron, the water in the bucket of rock was perfectly clear after 3 hours and the PH changed slightly from 7.6 to 8 after 12 hours.

My additional stack of culverts is ready to go.

I'll take some pics when I put on the BH.

In the picture with the stake the orange ribbon is 6" above the level of the spill way (according to my laser level) and will be the height of the small (30"X6') culvert.

As you can tell the water is still rising at a good rate, I'm feeling a sense of urgency to complete this.

Monday will be pea gravel day and Tuesday will be installation day.

Any last minute advice is still welcomed.

 

[pacerron]

In the picture with the stake the orange ribbon is 6" above the level of the spill way (according to my laser level) and will be the height of the small (30"X6') culvert.
Monday will be pea gravel day and Tuesday will be installation day.
Any last minute advice is still welcomed.

Don
Looks like your ready to dig. Where are you going to pile your spoil as you dig? Who knows, you might hit a big layer of water sand.
Can you tell from your water well log at the house what type of strata you may be getting into? It won't be horizontal but the layers may match and you know what has been cut through already.
Whoever bulldozed your pond shape and field water barrier wall did a good job.
Last minute advice: Big drinking water jug, tall barn boots, and have somebody up there while your digging the pit. The dog doesn't count.
I'm sure we will all see some great pictures soon.
Ron

 

[jinman]

Don, your rock looks fine to me for your purposes. That washed handful and the bucket show that it is not flat chips, but various sizes that will allow water to pass just fine. I don't think you'll have any problem with it packing and sealing.

The small pea gravel my well driller used was tiny because it had to fall down on the outside of the casing in the space between the hole wall and the PVC casing. Keeping small pea sized gravel ensured there were no dams forming and stopping the gravel from going all the way to the bottom. In your case, you'll have no worry with anything like that.

Edit: Don, isn't it odd in the middle of a drought to be talking about water rising too quickly?:confused2: You obviously have one heck of a good spring. Elevations considered, isn't the spring's elevation above the creek bed where we built the bridge?

 

[txdon]

When they did soil testing on the hill for the house foundation they did hit a layer of coarse sand after the red clay. I just don't remember at what depth it was.

The spoils will go on the bank (to the left of the picture below) and I can take them further up after setting the culverts.

The cave-in shows the virgin soil red clay with streaks of water laden sand. It looks like two areas of springs in front of the culvert also.

The culvert filled with water last night. I'll dig a small hole on the down side to drain it before digging.

It's good to know that that rock will work.

Jim, the bridge in the back is a lower elevation but is on the up-side of the fault line. Looking at the attached map at Lee county, the Carrizo-Wilcox Aquifer outcropings follow the fault lines through Lee County right through the middle of our place.

http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publica...rts/R345 Aquifers of Texas/Majors/carrizo.pdf

Like the bridge, I hope to fix this up to be a focal point on the land.
Can't wait to plant grasses and lay stone up the embankment.

 

[jinman]

Jim, the bridge in the back is a lower elevation but is on the up-side of the fault line. Looking at the attached map at Lee county, the Carrizo-Wilcox Aquifer outcropings follow the fault lines through Lee County right through the middle of our place.

http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publica...rts/R345 Aquifers of Texas/Majors/carrizo.pdf

I think Lucy and Harvey think there's a spring in your meadow just before the creek.:laughing:

That's a really interesting point about the outcroppings and the line right across your property. Did you know that before buying it?

 

[txdon]

That's a really interesting point about the outcroppings and the line right across your property. Did you know that before buying it?

When I first got the plat of the land, when we were was looking at it, it had the word spring on it about where it is at. It took 5 months to close on the property because of certain tittle liens. I did extensive research in Rice University library on everything I could find. That's where I found out about the fault line. I was thinking about California and was very concerned, I even spoke to a geologist and he assured me it was not an active fault line. He also told me that there might be rock outcroppings and springs near the fault line. I found out later about the Aquifer.

After we bought the land I dug down by hand 2' with a post hole digger, (in front of where the culvert is now) and started hearing a hissing sound and it filled with water in about 10 minutes. I put a (6" diameter) PVC pipe with small holes in the bottom half and water flowed out for several years (1 foot above ground level) till the PVC filled with sand.

I figure I will be digging down about 6' further than that 2' hole to an unknown area.

The springs come out higher in wet years, so I did not know if it was a seep or a spring, now with the little rainfall for the last 3 years I am convinced it is a spring.

 

[pacerron]

Jim, the bridge in the back is a lower elevation but is on the up-side of the fault line. Like the bridge, I hope to fix this up to be a focal point on the land.
QUOTE]

Excuse the ignorance of a newcomer, but what is the "Bridge"
Ron

 

[bindian]

Don,
I have numerous "wet weather" springs around the house and barn. When I had my Ford 3055, I added a lean to on the shop for tractor cover. I didn't know a wet weather spring was there. One day after a hard rain when the ground was saturated, I tried to back out and down I went. I had to jack up the tires and block her up to get out.
hugs, Brandi

 

[txdon]

Jim, the bridge in the back is a lower elevation but is on the up-side of the fault line. Like the bridge, I hope to fix this up to be a focal point on the land.
QUOTE]

Excuse the ignorance of a newcomer, but what is the "Bridge"
Ron

In 2004 A group of TBNers in Texas and one Okie got together near Dallas at Harvey's shop and built a bridge out of metal. We got to use a forge, wagon wheel maker, MIG, Cutting torch, stick welder, plasma cutter, metal benders, etc..... Whole families came out and we had a big BBQ. It was the best of times! Here is the 900+ post thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/south/42887-norte-tejas-north-texas-project.html

After it was done we unbolted it and took it to Lee County to my creek. We had another big party as we attached the rock facing a couple of months later. That's when harvey got stuck and my cousin was called for the rescue to pull him out with his dozer. I remember it all every time I cross the bridge and see everyones TBN name on the Large Texas shape on the side of the bridge.