Orec tracked flail vs Grillo wheeled flail vs ride on

[2manyrocks]

My arms are pretty tired this morning from pushing down on the handlebars to lift the cutter.

Not seeing any Grillos/BCS for sale in Middle TN other than a couple at the dealers. Least expensive option so far is a used 110 plus new 28" Bittante flail for $5500. I've heard of the Berta flail, but can't find much information on the Bittante.

 

[leonz]

I have some hillside areas I'd like to mow. Currently own both a Gravely walkbehind with 30" rough cut mower and a Bachtold rough cut. Already own a Kubota L2501 and MX5200. Don't want to use either Kubota on the hillside.

I tend not to use the Gravely because of the weight.

The Bachtold starts easily and does a good job of cutting material off at the base, but doesn't grind it up because it has an open deck that isn't enclosed on the sides. It's exhausting to push the handbars to lift it up over material, drop it down, and then pull it back by hand to cut up the material. It has a single forward speed and no power reverse. So what tends to happen is cut briars pile up at my feet and then I have to pull it back to chop them up. I use it as a last resort and never look forward to using it. Plus it has thrown a few rocks at my shins even though the rubber flap is in place that is supposed to stop that from happening.

I've been wondering if a flail mower would do an easier job of chopping up 6' tall briars and honeysuckle. The nearest BCS/Grillo dealer says he has a Grillo 110 with less than 100 hours that he could sell me with a 28" Bittante flail mower for about $5400. The list price of a new one with the flail would be around $6,300.

Then I noticed Orec America has a 25" flail driven by tracks. The nearest dealer didn't give me an exact quote other than to say it would be about $6,000 plus $300 shipping. The dealer has one to rent for $180/day so I could at least test one before buying. Both the Grillo and Orec have Honda engines, but the Orec is 8.4 hp vs 13hp on the Grillo.

I tend to think the tracks would do a better job of being able to push the flail into/over brush, but there is a substantial difference in HP between the Orec and the Grillo. The Orec advertises .6 mph in lowest gear vs .8 mph for the Grillo. I could see the slower speed as being better for allowing the flail time to chop up brush.

I don't care about other implements. This would be for brush cutting only.

Another option is there is a Steiner 410 with a 5' finish mower with 550 hours on the tractor and a new Honda engine listed for $8500. It does not have the two speed gear range of later Steiners and a finish mower would not be the best option for cutting brush. However, it would be nice to ride instead of walk if the Steiner could do the job. I don't think I have the option of testing it on my property before buying. The dealer does not have a brush cutter in stock to fit this model.

Final option would be a Power Trac PT 425 with a 48" brush cutter. The price is $17,750 plus shipping. I hate to spend this much just to mow a hillside.

Mulling this over. Would appreciate any thoughts to help think this through.

You would be much better off renting a FECON tracked mulcher for three plus days for the amount of money spent on a new machine as you would be able to clear every acre and mulch below the ground to rip up roots and stumps to clear the land and perhaps cover it with plastic mulch to kill off any weeds and other brush.

 

[2manyrocks]

I see your point. Why spend $5500 or whatever and still not get the job done versus renting a machine that will do it.

 

[Rustyiron]

Not exactly "on topic" but I have a "F" model kubota, F being front cut. It's intended for lawns but over my almost 30 years of ownership I've put it in some very precarious slope situations.
This was with turf tires and I've always wondered if someone offered either a bush Hog or flail type mower for it. The tires could be easily upgraded to something more aggressive and from the OP's pictures, I wouldn't be concerned about the slopes up, down or sideways.
Older F models can be had for less than the proposed walk behinds and if you found one with the factory mower shot or missing I'd bet it would be $2-3000 at the most.... if only such a mower a
was offered.

 

[2manyrocks]

That's on topic as far as I'm concerned. That idea has crossed my mind. I have seen some front flail mowers advertised to fit some front mowers like Kubota, Grasshopper, and maybe others.

 

[joecoin]

A flamethrower or roundup, then keep up with the mowing if it ever grows back.

 

[Rustyiron]

I was going to mention goat's, even a hired heard annually.

 

[2manyrocks]

Some years ago, we had an area that was kudzu infested, but couldn't mow it because of not knowing what was under the layers of kudzu. We fenced it off with electric fence and put a pair of goats in there. They did a very effective job of clearing it, and the area has stayed more kudzu free than the areas I sprayed with glyphospate.

The issues with goats are having a good fence to keep them in and feeding them in the wintertime. A good fence is also needed to keep coyotes away from them.

Tried glyphospate. The kudzu kept coming back, and I finally decided I was wasting my time and my money. Forest service guy recommended a mix of what amounts to brushtox and milestone by their common trade names. That seems to be doing a better job of killing it, but these herbicides aren't cheap these days.

Goats would probably be a better long term choice for the hillside that has kudzu because they will actually help kill it. Mowing doesn't really do that.

Mid-October through November is baby copperhead season here.

https://www.facebook.com/TVA/photos/a.390527717690/10157897780847691

Dampens my enthusiasm a bit.

 

[Rustyiron]

If there's such a thing, copperheads are just plain mean!
Rattlers will at least give you a warning.
Check around for someone who hires out their goats FOR clearing purposes. A friend did that for some very steep and rocky ground that gave him a lake view. I was skeptical but not after the goats turned it all into goat chit!

 

[jeepcoma]

So what's your estimate of whether a flail will be able to cut this overgrown briar patch in a single pass?


View attachment 825738

A 2-wheel tractor with a flail mower will absolutely annihilate that briar patch. It's the correct tool for the job, no need to keep deliberating about it. If you don't want to buy one, I agree that renting or hiring someone for a day make a lot of sense, especially if you just want a once-and-done approach. Buying a 2-wheel tractor on the other hand is an investment - yes it's expensive, but it's a versatile machine that will last you many years. If your only goal is to clear this patch, buying brand new probably doesn't make sense. Used packages do come up often enough and Earth Tools has a bulletin board and lots of good deals.

I have all the implements that are being discussed here: flail mower, double action cutter bar, brush hog, small lawn mower, big lawn mower, flamethrower. The flail mower is exactly what you need for this job and would be the only tool I'd reach for in the case. You already have a nice clearing up to the patch so you can offset the handle bars so that you are working in the cleared space, and cut right across it. It'll mulch it so nicely that you can wear flip flops while you cut.

I think a misconception is that because they only have two wheels, they are thought of as "big lawnmowers" and put in that pricing/utility category. They are not - they are tractors in every sense of the word, and the implements they drive and just as rugged as anything you can get for larger 4-wheel tractors.

Other random thoughts based on things you've brought up:

* When clearing land, things happen fast. Speed is not your friend. Even 0.8 mph will be too fast some times and you'll be wishing for a half gear slower (or a hydro)
* You shouldn't consider anything other than the largest foam filled tires you can get.
* I've never spun the wheels unless I drive it right into a big tree or solid object. You'll bog the engine down first if you've got too much material under the deck.
* You won't need to be working hard behind the levers, because you won't need to apply pressure to lift the deck. You want it flat on the ground.
* I'd only be taking "nibbles" if I thought there was an obstacle somewhere that I couldn't see, like a partially buried concrete footing or a rusting pile of iron that someone piled up.
* Doing a 180* turn while mowing in 3rd gear will have you running to keep up, but in all other conditions it's a walk in the park

 

[2manyrocks]

A 2-wheel tractor with a flail mower will absolutely annihilate that briar patch. It's the correct tool for the job, no need to keep deliberating about it. If you don't want to buy one, I agree that renting or hiring someone for a day make a lot of sense, especially if you just want a once-and-done approach. Buying a 2-wheel tractor on the other hand is an investment - yes it's expensive, but it's a versatile machine that will last you many years. If your only goal is to clear this patch, buying brand new probably doesn't make sense. Used packages do come up often enough and Earth Tools has a bulletin board and lots of good deals.

I have all the implements that are being discussed here: flail mower, double action cutter bar, brush hog, small lawn mower, big lawn mower, flamethrower. The flail mower is exactly what you need for this job and would be the only tool I'd reach for in the case. You already have a nice clearing up to the patch so you can offset the handle bars so that you are working in the cleared space, and cut right across it. It'll mulch it so nicely that you can wear flip flops while you cut.

I think a misconception is that because they only have two wheels, they are thought of as "big lawnmowers" and put in that pricing/utility category. They are not - they are tractors in every sense of the word, and the implements they drive and just as rugged as anything you can get for larger 4-wheel tractors.

Other random thoughts based on things you've brought up:

* When clearing land, things happen fast. Speed is not your friend. Even 0.8 mph will be too fast some times and you'll be wishing for a half gear slower (or a hydro)
* You shouldn't consider anything other than the largest foam filled tires you can get.
* I've never spun the wheels unless I drive it right into a big tree or solid object. You'll bog the engine down first if you've got too much material under the deck.
* You won't need to be working hard behind the levers, because you won't need to apply pressure to lift the deck. You want it flat on the ground.
* I'd only be taking "nibbles" if I thought there was an obstacle somewhere that I couldn't see, like a partially buried concrete footing or a rusting pile of iron that someone piled up.
* Doing a 180* turn while mowing in 3rd gear will have you running to keep up, but in all other conditions it's a walk in the park

Thank you for the additional perspective.

The BCS 779 is the only hydro I see for sale new at a current list of $7,504. IMO, it would be much better for tailoring ground speed to both ground and vegetation conditions, but is quite a bit more than the used Grillo 110 under consideration at roughly $3,500.

The hydro would eat some of the available power, but I agree that slower is better in this situation, particularly when the vegetation is so tall and there is so much more volume of material for the frail to shred.

Mowing with the Bachtold, it was absolutely better to nibble and cut up the vegetation while it was standing instead of cutting it and then trying to grind it up laying on the ground. If the vegetation entangled the Bachtold, it became much more labor intensive to get it free, especially because there is no power reverse on the Bachtold.

In my experience, it is very important to be able to grind up the vegetation as I go. I'm just not sure how all that material will feed into a flail mower even if I used a hydro to slow it down. Maybe that offsets the additional cost of the hydro, but I'd want to be pretty sure it would work before paying double for the tractor.

Bigger diameter wheels on a gear drive would increase the .8mph speed by what, something like 10%? On the one hand, larger tires would help but at the cost of increasing ground speed which would hurt, IMO. Not sure about this aspect.

Have you any additional thoughts on buying a Bittante flail versus a Berta?

I am familiar with the land before it grew up in brush. There isn't any hidden junk unless some spy balloon has crashed and I didn't notice.

Being able to swing the handlebars seems like a decided plus for getting away from the yet to be cut standing briars. The other decided plus would be having a power reverse.

 

[Jrasband]

The 779 will also go 1 mph faster than the 853/749 and looks like a breeze to operate, I want one!

Larger wheels increase wheel speed by about 10%. One thing that is really nice about larger wheels is that it is easier to drive over obstacles.

Being able to keep your RPM maxed, and slow your wheel speed down or direction without changing gears will make the Hydro much easier to operate. Especially if you want to go slower than a gear drive would go in 1st. That said, I have never felt the need to go slower than I could go in 1st while mowing overgrowth with a flail.

To be able to be mowing in precarious terrain like you have pictured you will have a lot of obstacles which will be a a lot of stop and go. This is where the 779 will far excel over the gear drive.

The Hydro would be so nice to operate because you don't have to squeeze the clutch in much at all. In my experience It can get cumbersome to pull the clutch in a lot and If I was buying a new machine and I had the money it would be well worth the extra cost.

 

[Rustyiron]

2Many, I spent years clearing the type of stuff you pictured with a 2 wheel Gravely...... but I was around 16 years old. 30" mower and a dual wheel setup, my approach was handles down raising the mower for about 4' into the jungle, then drop the mower and back out. I'd repeat to either side. I was usually in a immature woods and mowing lawn style in long rows wasn't a good option.
Looking at your pics, working uphill would aid a little in the effort to raise the mower for the initial pass. I got a very nice "finish" this way.
You have the gravely aalready and probably have tried every approach, and this also was 40+ years ago and I was just a dumb kid full of piss and vinegar. Somehow I remember that work (and results) fondly and still have a warm place in my heart for those stubborn, heavy, cumbersome but solid as a rock machines.
I thought I'd mention my technique just incase you hadn't tried it. Dual wheels is a nice option for a Gravely walk behind.

 

[jeepcoma]

I was mostly tongue-in-cheek regarding the hydro. I often desire having one, but no way I would ever pay the cost (up-front costs, power it eats up, and fuel consumption). There's a few times though where you want to be at max engine speed and go slower!

Taller tires are more useful for ground clearance, I wasn't thinking at all about speed, but you're right. Clearing land, I'd opt for as much clearance as possible. I have high-centered mine several times and I went with the biggest tires available.

A used G110 at that price seems pretty good. If buying used, you can probably use it for a season or two and resell it at not much loss either - if you think of it as a rental, it might be worth that alone.

I have no experience with the Bittante but the Berta has been bullet proof (probably literally given some of the dents on the deck that I have acquired). Maybe try to find a parts manual for the Bittante and see how it is constructed, and how you could source replacement parts if you have a problem?

 

[2manyrocks]

So far as I know Daileys is the only US source for Bittante.

Making a note here that I think the Orec America walk behind track flail mower is the only one with a brush push bar. And there is also what looks to be a debris screen to protect the operator.

I thought about adding a push bar to the Bachtold, but decided the skinny bicycle tires don't have enough traction for it to actually help.

 

[jeepcoma]

I wouldn't want to push the brush, since the point is to run it over and mulch it. If pushing stuff around is a requirement the Orec would be the way to go; the 2-wheel tractors can do a lot, but landscaping isn't one of the jobs they are well suited to. You can get various front and rear mount blades for them, but... I would be looking for another tool if a dozer is a primary need. They are good at pulling but not so much for pushing.

A debris screen isn't needed for a few reasons. First is that the knives rotate in a forward direction and thus kick objects forward. Due to the orientation and height above ground, they kick objects forward, like a putting a golf ball. Big rocks and such just roll along the ground about 10 feet. They also have to pass under think hinged plastic screens so they won't ever have much velocity, even when hit by the front line of knives.

In order for something come out the rear (I have never witnessed this), it would have to be somehow kicked up inside the deck, hit by a knife at the top of the rotation, make it past the rest of the knives (there are three rows), then there is the solid roller that the entire implement rides on (even sturdier than the plastic guards), and then another set of plastic guards on the rear just for good measure. Then the tractor is in the way too.

Nothing comes out the back. Because of its design, it's very safe compared to rotary cutters that can fling materials in a 360* pattern and thus need a lot more guarding. If you're hitting lots of obstacles with the flail, the only thing that's not safe is your wallet.

 

[Rustyiron]

I was mostly tongue-in-cheek regarding the hydro. I often desire having one, but no way I would ever pay the cost (up-front costs, power it eats up, and fuel consumption).

This was mentioned earlier, it got me wondering....
If it's only the wheel drive that's "hydro", and the PTO was still mechanical, wouldn't the hydraulic loss be very minimal?
A hydrostatic drive is so perfect for low speed with a relatively low power - high load condition.

 

[2manyrocks]

Although the hydro is appealing for its ability to change speeds on the fly and I doubt that the power loss is really that much, I can't say if paying double to get the hydro is worth it or not. I think it comes down to whether the .8 mph speed of the mechanical gear tractor is a slow enough speed relative to the size of the flail mower and amount of brush to be shredded. And then there's the option of taking smaller bites instead of trying to cut the entire width of the flail mower.

About the push bar....

With this brush being 6' tall, my assumption is it could be easier for the flail to digest it if were pushed over just enough to feed into the flail. Not saying push it over entirely because that would be worse to shred. I'm just wondering if bending the brush over a bit would help the feed or does the flail just do that well on its own?

My second assumption would be that a flail that has a taller wide opening would seem better able to chomp away at tall brush than one that wasn't as tall. However, it were too open, then the material could overwhelm the cutting capacity of the flail.

Having never used a flail mower, feel free to keep telling me what I don't know.

 

[travisbb]

With this brush being 6' tall, my assumption is it could be easier for the flail to digest it if were pushed over just enough to feed into the flail. Not saying push it over entirely because that would be worse to shred. I'm just wondering if bending the brush over a bit would help the feed or does the flail just do that well on its own?

My second assumption would be that a flail that has a taller wide opening would seem better able to chomp away at tall brush than one that wasn't as tall. However, it were too open, then the material could overwhelm the cutting capacity of the flail.

In my experience a pushbar would be counter productive.

The opening on the Berta flail mower is about 6 inches tall. The way the plastic gates are oriented is like a small ramp which causes the mower to climb up bushes and saplings.

When mowing things like saplings the biggest problem is pushing them over before the base is cut. So you get a whole lot of nothing happening while the sapling is pushed over, then all at once the base of the sapling is cut and the rest is sucked into the flail mower in a split second.

If you've pushed over a lot of dense bush and it all gets sucked in at once it risks stalling the engine. It's better to keep the bush as vertical as possible to regulate how fast it is pulled into the mower.

 

[2manyrocks]

Thank you for explaining it to me.