Orec tracked flail vs Grillo wheeled flail vs ride on

[leonz]

The Grillo dealer seems pretty confident that the Grillo/flail will cut this briar patch, but said it will be slow. Haven't heard from the Orec rep, but I suspect they'll say the same thing.

Trouble is, I know from experience that cutting brush with a walk behind on a hillside is a hard physical task. That's really why I'm interested in finding some kind of ride on brush cutter that will work on this slope.

Although I hate to spend an additional $18k for a PT on top of what I already spent on Kubotas, I'm having trouble thinking of a less expensive alternative.

You should also check with the local FECON mulcher brush mower dealer near you as there almost 30 of them around you to see how much a daily rental for a small tracked mulcher would be as it would be able to clear this in less than a day and then go back and grind everything back below ground level so you can use a wood brush killer on it.

They would be able to tell you who has an FTX150 or FTX150-2 that could come and clear this sloped plot as well if they do not have a rental unit of this size.

If the rental or day hire is less than a new purchase I would think about it.

"I hate fighting with things"

 

[Jrasband]

Giving the whole walking tractor thing more thought.

Commercial lawn mowers went through a phase when they were walk behinds. Then someone got smarter and decided that a tow behind sulky would mean less work. Then someone else saw the shortcomings of sulkies and came up with the stand on mower.

Watching one video demonstrating a walk behind tractor equipped with a rotary brush cutter, it seems to me that the operator was doing a lot of work simply turning the tractor and trying to keep up with it. It looks like a familiar scene to me of having to nibble away at brush by repeatedly driving into it, backing out, going forward, and then having to reposition the tractor by turning it to cut the brush from a different angle. This amounts to a lot of steps just to cut a relatively small area.

Also, the tractor's forward speed doesn't always equate to a comfortable walking speed for the operator when on a hillside and the terrain varies, especially when the tractor has to be turned on a hillside in order to be repositioned.

I understand that these things are built to plow while also doing mowing work. I understand that a sulky isn't going to work well on a hillside, but I also think that brush mowers could be designed to allow for a platform for either walking or stand on operation. Being able to stand on the machine would take a significant amount of work out of this.

Once the operator gets skilled at operating a BCS/Grillo that is properly balanced it is not as much effort as you might think. It is essential that the tractor is properly balanced with the implement because it only has one axle.
It is essential you use the steering brakes all the time.

Do not repeately stop, back up and take bites as you say. This is a good way to wear yourself out on the tractor. Do not use the clutch anymore than you have to, do not stop to turn around. Obviously sometimes you have to stop and reverse and it is not that hard the controls are very well laid out. Just do not do it excessively because it will be tiresome.

With a flail mower you do not have to adjust your attack angle it is a highly effective mower that will take down overgrown brush or 6' tall covercrops in one pass.

There is plenty of speed variation to have a comfortable pace at whatever speed you want to go. The only thing I wish sometimes is that I could go faster, and that is one reason I got extra large wheels.

If you read the above article by Joel it says that BCS was designed for mowing, and that Grillo was made for plowing. That said they both do a pretty good job of doing both, and that is one of the beauties of these walk-behind tractors.

If you are very serious about mowing only BCS makes mowing only tractors that you can't turn the handlebars around on. If you insist on stopping and going alot they also have hydrostatic walk behind tractors now(no clutch)

You can also get the 749 which is the same as the 852/853 but with hydraulic clutch instead of cable which is much easier to pull in.

 

[Jrasband]

I have never operated a Gravely but I have heard that a BCS much easier to use.

 

[2manyrocks]

Thank you very much for the additional perspective.

My experience with my Gravely is that the 30 inch deck will cut straight into the brush pile and then forward motion stops. One of mine has 4.80-8 tires. Between the weight of the front deck, the forward length of the deck relative to the axle, and the tire size, it's not so easy for me to lift the deck very much to get over brush. Cutting brush at the base just leaves the tangled mess above it.

However, it was Joel's video where I noticed the amount of work, IMO, he was having to put into turning his BCS and keep up with it when using a 32" rotary cutter. It looked like he made a lot of steps just to keep up with the turning radius of the machine.

And in this respect, I wonder if the Orec Cyclone wouldn't have a advantage in that it should be able to turn in its own length with it's track drive system. The disadvantage to the Orec that I see is it uses a 8.4 hp engine for a 25.6" cutter where Grillo and BCS have 13hp available. The list price of the Orec is right at $6,000 where the BCS 852 and Berta 26" flail were quoted to me at $7,867 before shipping. The Orec is also available to rent to try on my property before ordering one. Looking at the Orec, I tend to doubt that the operator can do much to lift the cutter head where perhaps the Grillo/BCS /flail would be easier because of the 22" tires. On the other hand, perhaps the tracks just allow the Orec to push over the brush pile without any lifting? IDK.

I'll offer my assessment of my Bachtold that has the revolving cutter head for additional perspective. Some were made with enclosed deck housing, but mine has the revolving cutter head shown in the picture I posted.

It is significantly lighter than the Gravely. The open cutter head is very efficient at cutting, but tends to cut, not shred material. Cutting tall briars means walking through a pile of them. It will shred them if I manually pull it back over them, but this is tiresome. It only has a single forward speed and no power reverse. If the cutter is raised very far off the ground, the blades throw debris in all directions. The ground speed gets to be too much if I give it very much throttle. The handlebars are fixed and never quite seem to be in the position I'd like them to be. There is no option to raise or tilt them.

So the hoped for advantages I see for the Grillo/BCS/flail would be: 1)that the flail does better at eating the standing brush without having to be lifted over it; 2) that the flail reduces the debris without throwing it everywhere so I no longer walk through piles of cut thorns; 3) that the 22" tires do better at pushing through the brush; 4) that the handlebars will allow for better leverage over the front flail in case it does need to be lifted; and 5) that the handlebars can be swung to the side out of the path of the briars reducing the unpleasantness to the operator.

 

[Jrasband]

Swinging the handlebars is really nice feature when mowing next to the fence or cutting through a tall patch of briars.

When the tractor is properly balanced( some downforce on implement but not much) it is pretty easy to lift the implement off the ground with the handlebars. It looks to me like you are unable to manipulate the Orec like the BCS/Grillo by lifting/pushing down on handlebars.

You do take a lot of steps keeping up with the turning radius of the tractor. In my opinion they are pretty effortless as with the steering brakes if you are maxed out in third the tractor kind of throws you around the turn. It is kind of like a dance with the tractor and can be lot of fun I think.

The flail mower will mostly destroy everything in its path. If the material is very woody and/or you have dull blades you may want to take a second pass.

 

[2manyrocks]

There is an interesting guy on YT going by America meets Switzerland. In one of his videos (farming the Alps #8), he talks about the difficulty and risk of mowing hay on mountain sides. They use the Aebi 4 wheel slope mowers where conditions permit, but at the steepest portions of the mountains, they use two wheel Rapid tractors running on steel wheels with spikes to sickle mow by hand.

The Rapid 2 wheel tractors in the video have hydrostatic transmissions controlled by turning the right hand grip either left (reverse) or right (forward) with the speed also being controlled by how far the grip is turned.

While I may personally have this thing for wanting a 4 wheel slope mower, it looks like farmers in Switzerland reach for their two wheel tractors when dealing with their steepest hills. From the looks of what they are cutting, I don't even see how the operators are able to stand up on those slopes other than I guess they are somehow able to hang onto the handbars of the tractors.

 

[travisbb]

Oh yes, two wheel tractors are best for steep slopes because not only do they have a lower center of gravity, but you aren't riding on them so if they do roll or flip (stay uphill on the steepest sections) there's little danger.

Walking behind a tractor is more work than riding it, but at low speeds with steering brakes it isn't an enormous strain. Fast turns are done with the steering brakes. Slow turns are made by pulling the handlebars with a lean, not a brute force push.

A hairpin 180 at the highest speed is athletic, but often unnecessary.

 

[joecoin]

Going too fast with a BCS/Grillo is not a factor, the manual shift models have three speed transmissions and the hydrostatic models have infinite speed adjustment.

 

[2manyrocks]

The Grillo 110 is the model I've been pricing because its less expensive than the BCS models. The specs say .8 mph in first gear.

The pricing of the mowers seems steep. $2280 for a 26" Berta flail mower. The Woodmax FM-54 is $2374 for a full size tractor.

I"m not sure if I should be getting a flail mower instead of a rotary brush mower. Is a flail mower really going to do a better job of mowing 4-6' tall briar patches in terms of being able to cut into the pile and then cutting its way through it instead of having to nibble away at it?

The videos that others have linked in this thread seem to show the tractor tires spinning when they run into brush piles which stops forward progress. Then they back up and start nibbling again. Would foam filled tires help?

 

[JimRB]

Foam tires are just to eliminate flats. On 4 wheel tractors, foamed front tires meant you lost the suspension of a tire. Very bumpy driving the neighbors JD with foam filled front tires. They were also aircraft landing tires mounted on front tractor rims so maybe the 24 ply tires were going to be stiff, foam or not. Big difference I guess between 8 ply rated versus 8 ply actual or in the case of landing gear tires, a lot more plies.

What happened to you renting a unit to see if you liked it? You can talk and talk but actually having a rig to use lets you know within 8 hours if you really want to mow those slopes. Maybe temporary fences and temporary goats will be less work once you get the slopes tamed. The neighbors goats keep the briars down in one little no mans section of our property.

We had a demo of a stand on leaf blower. The guys that did not grasp the concept of squeeze levers to go and steer, gently release the levers to stop got the thrill of getting bucked off the equipment. The go levers are also the brakes. 6 mph to zero in a millisecond will buck you. I would not want a stand on for hillside mowing. I like the idea of quick stop when all hands off stops all progress and drama.

 

[2manyrocks]

Putting off renting for a bit. I need the weather to turn cold so I don't run into any snakes. Had a rattlesnake in my yard when I was mowing the yard about 6 weeks ago.

The presence of rattlesnakes is also something that weighs in favor of a ride on machine. Otherwise, I would only use a walk behind in the winter when they aren't active.

 

[JimRB]

Snakes are real!

 

[ArlyA]

Gee, I have no idea how you folks work in grass and the woods with all those snakes!

 

[Fixastuff]

Gee, I have no idea how you folks work in grass and the woods with all those snakes!

We have snakes everywhere here. People are very scared of them for some reason. The only people I know that have been bitten are people that tired to pick up posionous ones to show off.

 

[Jrasband]

I have not used a brush cutter on a BCS. I do have a lot of hours spent using the Berta flail and I was super impressed with how effective it was. Only one pass almost all the time unless I was mowing overgrown bushy type material.

I do not have a flail mower anymore, now I use a 54" single action sickle bar and am very happy with it. I don't really miss the flail mower either. The sickle will cut anything a flail will cut while keeping RPMs down and mow twice the width!

I had a double action cutter bar for a while and I do not think they are better than the single action.

I have found that just cutting briars so that they can lay flat they decompose within a growing season, and If you mow more often they will be smaller and eventually be replaced by grasses.

 

[2manyrocks]

I have not used a brush cutter on a BCS. I do have a lot of hours spent using the Berta flail and I was super impressed with how effective it was. Only one pass almost all the time unless I was mowing overgrown bushy type material.

So what's your estimate of whether a flail will be able to cut this overgrown briar patch in a single pass?

What I am finding with the Bachtold rotary cutter is that it only severs it at the base, and then the entire pile of brush falls onto the mower uncut. That isn't working for me. The only way I'm able to cut through this is to lift the mower deck up, drop it down to shred the brush, pull back, repeat the process, a bite at the time. I find it essential to shred the material as I go.

If the flail will shred this material without having to lift the deck and drop it repeatedly, that would be a huge labor saver.

On the other hand, if it's just too much to ask of this size of machinery to be able to shred this 4-6' tall mess, even using half the flail's cutting width, then I need to rethink the options.

I do not have a flail mower anymore, now I use a 54" single action sickle bar and am very happy with it. I don't really miss the flail mower either. The sickle will cut anything a flail will cut while keeping RPMs down and mow twice the width!

A sickle makes the most sense to me, as well, for long term maintenance. A sickle mower is a more effective option for the amount of cutting width and speed. I wouldn't want to try to maintain 5 acres only cutting 26" at a pass.

 

[Jrasband]

What I would do there for initial clearing if possible is use tractor with landscape rake, drive in reverse with rake turned around backwards and push all that stuff to the bottom of the hill where i can compost or be burned., Than you can easily keep up with it with the walk-behind. The more years of letting things go and not doing anything the more work it is to cut it back down. How long since the area in the picture was cleared?

How woody is the vegetation in the picture, and how thick are the stems? The flail mower will have no problem with one pass cutting something like tons of blackberry but if you want it mow bushes down you will probaly want to do a second pass.

 

[2manyrocks]

10-15 years because I was uncomfortable getting on the slope with my tractor and didn't want anyone else on it, either.

Some of the briars are 1/2 thick. There are some trees that will have to be chainsawed, and some 1" saplings.

I decided to cut some of the kudzu infested slope today with the Bachtold just to get it clear in my own mind what it can and can't do. If I raise the cutter and drop it on the brush, I can nibble away at it, and it chops it up pretty well.

However, if I try to just cut it, the vegetation is too tall and it leaves piles of 4-5' of uncut material. I tried cutting by running through it and then making another pass to grind it up, but it was worse than the nibble method.

If I only partly cut up the material and vegetation gets hung on the mower, it's actually pretty difficult pulling it back since the Bachtold has no power reverse.

The area that was just briars was easier to cut than the area that was mixed with kudzu because the kudzu vine clings to everything in sight. I'd say it's 50+ percent harder cutting the area where there is kudzu mixed in. Actually 100% harder if the kudzu is very tall.

After about 8 hours of cutting, it was pretty exhausting.

First picture is the debris that piles up if I just try running through it. It's actually dangerous because the temptation is to pull it off, but the drive belt and blade are pretty exposed on this machine. Once it finally gets to the ground, it's difficult to grind it up.

Second and third pictures are the brush being cut by nibbling relative to the mower. Raising the cutter and repeatedly dropping it onto the brush does a better job of grinding it up.

Fourth picture is the end result. It does grind up the material. It's just the amount of labor required to get to this point.

 

[Jrasband]

Looks like you got some good work done! I think you would be very impressed what a Grillo/BCS with flail or rotorary cutter would accomplish in comparison to the bachtold.

I bet you slept real good last night!

The flail in my experience will cut any of the briars fully mulched with dull blades. The woody material it can cut 1/2" pretty easy but 1" I would go over a second time.

As long as you can push it over it will likely cut it.

 

[Jrasband]

You could wait and try to find a BCS/Grillo on Craigslist/Marketplace to save money.

I bought my 853 3 years ago with a Berta Rotory plow for $3,200. It needed new plow shares and that was it.

My previous BCS was a 830, which is precursor to 852. it is very similar but the controls are not near as ergonomical and the handlebars are a little shorter.

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