Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[Catoosa]

This is baffling to say the least, don't believe anyone here has ran into what Dan is experiencing. This may be asking allot but might help us figure out what is going on. Can you make a video of the mower in action? Maybe have a helper walk beside the tractor with the camera, include sound if you can. Most cameras today will record videos and of course if you have a smart phone...

On your question of wet grass, I mow in the mornings as we normally have temperatures close to 100 and 70% humidity by noon in the summer. The grass is always wet from dew, the flail doesn't seem to care unlike my ZTR. If I try to mow the yard the ZTR just clogs up with wet grass.

<edit> I mowed this yesterday morning, it was about 8 inches tall and wet. The close up is what my JD flail leaves behind.

 

[Steave]

Steave: "Is you 918 set up for rough cut and are you satisfied with it?"

So far as I have been able to determine, there is only one type of cutter available for the 918H. I asked about the availability of different cutters in an earlier post and got no response. Mine does finish and rough well so long as I keep the cutters sharpened. Vic

Thanks Vic. My old Mott seems to do well but I really like the finish cut it makes and didn't want to use it in places it really shouldn't be is the reason I would like to find a heavier rough cutting flail.

All along been using rotary cutters and finish mower but I like the way the flail is close to the tractor makes it more manuverable between trees.

So does your's have side slicer knives?

 

[nicko]

Jelf,

Looking for an update on your duckfoot mod, mainly want to know how the pin/spring clip combo
is working out.

I plan on doing this mod for my 1900 as a winter project and can't decide whether to use bolts
or go the pin/springclip route.

 

[leonz]

Standard angled side cutter pairs.

This afternoon I changed the points, condenser, cap, and rotor and no improvement. Had to buy a timing light since I have no idea where mine went...probably threw it out a few years ago since I hadn't needed one for ~20 years... Was hoping the other stuff would be the solution so I could return the light, but no such luck. Getting the total timing set made a big difference in power, but as soon as the mower loaded up the roller again it just brought the tractor to it's knees...as soon as it bogged down completely this time I shut the pto off and drove back to the garage..

Roller full of grass.. View attachment 480909

All of this came off the roller!View attachment 480910

Underneath full of loose grass.. View attachment 480911

Cleaned out.. View attachment 480912

I took the scraper bar off for now, but I'm pretty sure that's just going to allow the roller to really build up the grass. Up till now though, the grass would build up enough between the roller and scraper to jam the roller and I think it was probably just dragging and not rolling. I also always have heavy grass wrapped around the ends with the bearings (especially the right side), to the point where the bearing gets hot from being packed tight in insulation and also friction.

The grass was a little damp tonight, do others have trouble mowing if it's wet/damp or does it usually not matter? Wishing I had just bought a Bush Hog at this point...or no tractor at all...

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Hello Dan,


GROWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SPIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


)(*&^%$#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$#%^&*()_)(*&^%$#%^&*()_)(*&^%$%^&*()_)(*&^%$%^&*()_(*&^%$%^&*()(*&^%$#%^&*()_+)(*&^%$%^&*()_)(*&^%$^&*()_)(*&^%^&*()(*&^%



OK now that I have vented my spleen;


Please invest in a non contact rpm gauge to verify the

1. PTO SHAFT speed at the PTO SHAFT
2. Shaft Speed at cross shaft
3. Drive pulley speed
4. driven pulley speed

5 Flail Mower Rotor Speed; at the shaft end stub through the open bearing-measure only at
only at this point for reasons of safety to avoid exposure to the knife pairs while the rotor is spinning.

The flail mower rotor shaft stub should be spinning at 2200 RPM with the engine PTO Speed at 540 RPM.

Your side slicers have no cutting edge at 37 degrees of angle from horizontal!!

It is Not Your fault!!

It is the manufacturer of the flail mower that is responsible for this.

All your side slicer pairs are doing is just ripping at the tall grass and pulling it not verticutting it.


You can take the knives off and properly grind them at the 37 degree angle using a wet grinder or
order 100 of standard side slicers of that size that are not heat treated and have good mowing results.


IF you want I can talk with the folks that sold you this "flail mower".

GROWL
HISS
SPIT

(*&^%^&*()_+_)(*&^%^&*()_+_)(*&^

I only get mad when the quality is bad!! The knives are the business end of any flail mower and that is where the work is done!!

 

[CADplans]

I'm hung up on the first picture of the roller. Isn't that showing grass being slung over the TOP of the scraper?

How can grass get slung in this way if the drum is turning in the same direction as the tractor's wheels?

If the drum is turning counter to the tractor's wheels then I could the explanation being that the tractor is flattening some grass and the flail isn't picking it up well because it's rotating into the backside of the flattened grass, onto the top of the scraper.

I think the discussion that I have read states the mower is counter-rotating the tire direction??

:confused2:

The wrapping is nothing short of amazing,, no matter what direction the mower/wheels are turning..

If it were my mower,,,
I would,,, with a freshly cleaned drum,,, take the mower out and try cutting in reverse. :thumbsup:

 

[CADplans]

Hello Dan,

IF you want I can talk with the folks that sold you this "flail mower".

GROWL
HISS
SPIT

I only get mad when the quality is bad!! The knives are the business end of any flail mower and that is where the work is done!!

Now that I re-look at the pics, it does appear that the un-sharpened portion of the blade is doing a lot of the "work".
I would guess 50% of the grass is contacted by the flat, rather than the "blade" ?

If the 3/8" wide flat of those two blades hit the grass,, all it will do is pull on the grass, rather than cut it,,,

That is an amazing wear pattern, Dan,, thanks for posting the pics!! :thumbsup:

 

[sodamo]

Dan
Those pics baffle me. I have the heavier duty 195 now, had the 175 for several years. Not home to look (on Danube river cruise) but am certain mine rotate opposite the rear wheels. Have never seen that type buildup with either knives or hammers. Never seen grass in the blade hangers like that either. I have used both, prefer hammers for my place. My knives were equally sharp both edges.

I can give you a contact at the factory if you need, but talk to Steve at Betstco first.

 

[KenB2920]

I like the idea of having 3 flails. I could get by with 2, a finish mower which I have (Mott 72), and I've been keeping an eye out for ford 917 or preferably a 918 and set it up for rough cut if that's possible. I've had good luck with old ford equipment so that's what I'd prefer. Of course I'm not stuck on that brand another Mott but with a rough cut setup would be fine. Is you 918 set up for rough cut and are you satisfied with it. The Mott 72 I have has a bunch of side slicer knives, 92 stations with 184 knives. If a piece of grass gets through all that, bless its heart, I just leave it for the next time. Flail mowers have never been that popular in my area and a used one is hard to find but I'll keep waiting and looking. I can't see myself giving 1500 - 2000 new for another mower. <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=480903"/>

I have the same not as you and love it! The major problem I have with it, removing and replacing the bolts .... Also, it's. 6' and since I know have a bigger machine, I'd like a wider one.


I have a ford 907 6' which has the scoop knives ....

My 918H is heavy however it will leave an awesome finish.

I wish you were closer, there was a 917H about a month ago just north of me for sale. (20 minutes or so north). I'd pick it up for ya if you were closer.

 

[KenB2920]

Steave: "Is you 918 set up for rough cut and are you satisfied with it?" So far as I have been able to determine, there is only one type of cutter available for the 918H. I asked about the availability of different cutters in an earlier post and got no response. Mine does finish and rough well so long as I keep the cutters sharpened. Vic

I've only been able to find one type of cutter available for the 818h hat I have. It is rough cut but does great cutting finish grass as well.

 

[vlcakc]

Thanks Vic. My old Mott seems to do well but I really like the finish cut it makes and didn't want to use it in places it really shouldn't be is the reason I would like to find a heavier rough cutting flail.

All along been using rotary cutters and finish mower but I like the way the flail is close to the tractor makes it more manuverable between trees.

So does your's have side slicer knives?

This is the only style knife I've been able to find. Redirect Notice

I have cut brush up to about 1.5" with mine successfully. Makes a bit of noise while doing so though. It does do very nice finish work on my lawn comparable to my Hustler Z. Vic

 

[Alien]

I just looked at your photos again Dan. Do you not have skids on that mower? My skids are set at the same height as the roller and that keeps a lot of pressure off the roller.
My mower is a different brand but construction looks similar to yours except I have skids.
Does anyone else not have skid rails?

The black skids are visible here on the end of the mower.

FLAIL MOWER HPHD15

 

[Dan in MN]

Did a bunch of messing around today.. Went out with the scraper removed, as expected that was not good.... :laughing:View attachment 481025

After cleaning that off I checked pto rpm, by running the tractor at half pto speed I was able to count revolutions and 50 revs took 15 seconds. x4 to get to a minute and double because of the half engine speed gives 400 shaft rpm at the noted 540 pto speed on the tach so for whatever reason it's off a fair amount. I suspect the tach might not be original as it has mph in gears that doesn't account for the dual range transmission option that mine has. I've mostly been mowing above that rpm anyway as the motor is happier there, but went out and tried it at around 1900 rpm instead of 1500 (rated pto engine speed), may have cut a tiny bit better but no real change. As I waited for a return call from Betst I started to reinstall the scraper and noted that I could get it right up against the roller this time. I think it originally had come loose (or was never tightened properly) and because there is some odd slop in the bolts holes it would jam and not move over by the roller, leading me to think you couldn't get it close. You have to mess around with it a bit to get it over by the roller. Bolted it down right against the roller, tried again and huge improvement initially, then the scraper came loose and moved away from the roller and it loaded up again.. After tightening to the point of almost stripping the two bolts I went back out one more time and it was working decent, but eventually the tractor just bogged down again. There wasn't much on the roller this time though the ends where the shaft tapers still loaded up, so may possibly still have issues with the tractor itself. There was quite a bit of grass wrapped around the main shaft when I got back, but I had tried to go forward again several times with the tractor bogging so I don't know if that was loaded up the first time it came to a stop or after. So much grass wraps up on the tapered ends of the shaft that it compacts tightly around the bearings and they start to run hot even after a short time. I think a big part of the issue now may be that the knives just aren't cutting well, there shouldn't be any long grass left to wrap around like that.

leonz,
Some pieces of tape and rotating the pto by hand shows the gearbox to be about 2.8:1, and the pulleys about 1.4:1, so at 540 pto would give around 2120 main shaft rpm.

When you talk about 37 degrees is that some proven angle to work well on a flail slicer? Mine had more of an edge originally as dirt gopher mounds have rounded them a bit, but if moving fast enough should be cutting ok anyway.. If you are just referring to the half of the blade near the mounting hole no there aren't any edges, but when I look up other flail knives that seems to be quite common. I think part of the issue here is that there aren't as many blade stations as some flails, and you can tell a lot of grass is hitting the knife mounts because of the grass caught in them.

Alien,
Yes it has skids but they aren't designed to drag around on the skids, they are meant to take the weight on the rear roller. Skids are for rough terrain and parking...

 

[Steave]

I wish you were closer, there was a 917H about a month ago just north of me for sale. (20 minutes or so north). I'd pick it up for ya if you were closer.

Thanks for offering. I'll keep watching and thanks for the information. I'll go look at any of them within resonable distance but the pickings are slim. The State and a few counties use them but you hardly ever see them used by individuals.

 

[KenB2920]

Thanks for offering. I'll keep watching and thanks for the information. I'll go look at any of them within resonable distance but the pickings are slim. The State and a few counties use them but you hardly ever see them used by individuals.

Absolutely


I agree, a lot of people don't use them. It seems to be a hidden secret for some reason amongst common folk jk

 

[Steave]

This is the only style knife I've been able to find. Redirect Notice

I have cut brush up to about 1.5" with mine successfully. Makes a bit of noise while doing so though. It does do very nice finish work on my lawn comparable to my Hustler Z. Vic

To use as a rough cut mower that's what I need is weight. My 6' mott is a little over 500 lbs and while I get excellent finish cut when I try thicker brush it cuts it but I can't even hear my tunes. So I need a heavier mower or louder earbuds. I use headphones when on the skidsteer, that thing is loud just sitting in it. Thanks for the information it helps and I'll just keep waiting for something to come up on CL or farmers bullentin.

 

[leonz]

I hate to say it but you do need new knives.
They did a piss poor job of sharpening them using simple steel as a knife blank
and if they tell you different I will gladly have a conversation with them.

There is no excuse for those knives BECAUSE of the blunt edge that SHOULD NOT be there to begin with.

That is why your mower is not mowing well and tearing the brush rather than cutting it.

Your mule has issues as you said with a different Tachometer/speedometer than what is ment for your mule.



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The 37 degree cutting angle figure comes from the Mathews Company Lawn Genies that my father and I have owned and own now.

The no tool knife hangers they manufactured allow the tapered side slicers to become an airfoil(airplane wing) as they spin up to speed and the slotted knife goes from hanging at vertical to horizontal to create a world class finish on turf and brush.

The flail mower rotors on most machines do not allow this to happen because they are bolted to stay vertical in a knife station or the bent bar stock knife hangers do not allow them to move and create an airfoil.


I am so sorry you are going through this as new resident member of the "Flail Mower Nations".

 

[Steave]

Did a bunch of messing around today.. Went out with the scraper removed, as expected that was not good.... :laughing:View attachment 481025

After cleaning that off I checked pto rpm, by running the tractor at half pto speed I was able to count revolutions and 50 revs took 15 seconds. x4 to get to a minute and double because of the half engine speed gives 400 shaft rpm at the noted 540 pto speed on the tach so for whatever reason it's off a fair amount. I suspect the tach might not be original as it has mph in gears that doesn't account for the dual range transmission option that mine has. I've mostly been mowing above that rpm anyway as the motor is happier there, but went out and tried it at around 1900 rpm instead of 1500 (rated pto engine speed), may have cut a tiny bit better but no real change.

Dan on your sherman transmission do you know how much it reduces your pto speed. On the howard transmission pto speed does not change with gearing (only engine speed). I'm not sure how much it slows but you might can find out. I'm just thinking it might not change much but it is slower. The ratio as you calculated is going to stay the same of course but the pto speed as you mentioned about the dual range transmission will slow things down. I'm just thinking out loud as I know you've already thought of this. Wish I could offer more help. :confused3: No need to reply, just throwing thoughts at you.

 

[IslandTractor]

I hate to say it but you do need new knives.
They did a piss poor job of sharpening them using simple steel as a knife blank
and if they tell you different I will gladly have a conversation with them.

There is no excuse for those knives BECAUSE of the blunt edge that SHOULD NOT be there to begin with.

That is why your mower is not mowing well and tearing the brush rather than cutting it.

Your mule has issues as you said with a different Tachometer/speedometer than what is ment for your mule.



====================================================================


The 37 degree cutting angle figure comes from the Mathews Company Lawn Genies that my father and I have owned and own now.

The no tool knife hangers they manufactured allow the tapered side slicers to become an airfoil(airplane wing) as they spin up to speed and the slotted knife goes from hanging at vertical to horizontal to create a world class finish on turf and brush.

The flail mower rotors on most machines do not allow this to happen because they are bolted to stay vertical in a knife station or the bent bar stock knife hangers do not allow them to move and create an airfoil.


I am so sorry you are going through this as new resident member of the "Flail Mower Nations".

I don't know Leonz, my Caroni knives have never been sharpened and they cut tall grass just fine. I suspect sharp knives are important for finish cut but for field mowing anything sharper than a baseball bat should knock down and mulch tall grasses.

I still think there is something fishy about the RPMs. I don't know anything at all about old Ford tractors but 1500rpms just sounds low. Sounds reasonable for a marine diesel and I know old Ford diesels were used in marine applications but I believe in this case we are talking about a gasser and 1500-1800rpm for a gas engine just seems very low.

 

[powerscol]

Dan - Thanks you for all the information. I have been watching this as I was considering the brand - not now. One question - Has Betst gotten back with you yet on the issue? Can you return it? I also agree the knives look beat up in your last photo, but it is puzzling that both sides look kicked and warn.. Have you considered sharpening them and see how she does? Just curious.

Wishing you the best on a good solution

 

[Ozarks Landowner]

When I bought all new knives for my flail they were not what I would call sharpened at all. I tried cutting with them but ended up taking them all off and sharpening them some. Tried them again and could not tell much difference between dull and sharp .