Generator install - where to start

[WinterDeere]

If you heat with oil get a diesel, a real generator . Not a 3600 rpm pos...

lol... I was leaning the other way, for a few reasons, in order of importance:

1. Location of propane tank is more favorable than location of oil tank.
2. Concerns with oil performance in cold weather. It's often below 0F when we lose power.
3. The relative ubiquity of propane-fired generators. Face it, they're everywhere, and options abound.

I'll admit we could bury the oil line deep to manage freezing, although we'd be snaking thru a half-dozen other utilities in that area. But still, the last several feet and the generator itself are in the cold. With our oil tank being in our basement, it's totally un-treated for cold weather.

If diesel genny could be installed in basement, instead of outdoors, then there would be many advantages of going that route. But does anyone do that?

 

[EddieWalker]

I've seen a few commercial generators installed inside a building. Either on ground level, or in a basement.

 

[ponytug]

lol... I was leaning the other way, for a few reasons, in order of importance:

1. Location of propane tank is more favorable than location of oil tank.
2. Concerns with oil performance in cold weather. It's often below 0F when we lose power.
3. The relative ubiquity of propane-fired generators. Face it, they're everywhere, and options abound.

I'll admit we could bury the oil line deep to manage freezing, although we'd be snaking thru a half-dozen other utilities in that area. But still, the last several feet and the generator itself are in the cold. With our oil tank being in our basement, it's totally un-treated for cold weather.

If diesel genny could be installed in basement, instead of outdoors, then there would be many advantages of going that route. But does anyone do that?

People do install diesel generators in basements, often for cogeneration use, where the generator provides heat and power to the house.

However, noise/vibration and diesel odors in the house are issues to contend with. There were a few companies in New England offering that service a while back, but I have not looked recently. Addressing noise and vibration is not something that many folks are terribly good at in my experience.

For your uses, it may not make a difference, but is your house, and your call.

All the best, Peter

 

[Hunter29]

Well then at least look into this...

TRANE TR22REG-DB 22 KiloWatt, Single Phase, Liquid Cooled Whole House Stand-By Generator at Sutherlands

Find 22 KiloWatt, Single Phase, Liquid Cooled Whole House Stand-By Generator and other TRANE products at Sutherlands

sutherlands.com

20kw Single-Phase Standby Generator - Lifan Power USA

The Trane 20,000-Watt LPG/NG Liquid Cooled Standby Generator is driven by a high quality 998cc 1.0 l automotive-style, liquid-cooled engine. This 20kW unit can provide automatic whole-house power for larger homes or essential circuit protection for small and medium businesses such as convenience...

www.lifanpowerusa.com

 

[Rustyiron]

If diesel genny could be installed in basement, instead of outdoors, then there would be many advantages of going that route. But does anyone do that?

You might consider a little auxiliary garden "shed" to keep the generator and it's fuel tank at your desired generator location.
(Like I did) Mine is just sitting on a gravel foundation just like the shed guys sell. You will need to supply ventilation and a linear air movement thru the radiator and over the generator portion.
I handled this with just a hinged panel and "picture framed" them just like a window and simply prop them open.
I ran power to it for lights, the block heater and battery tender.
My system is 100% manual. I don't want to rely on a bunch of automatic equipment and I have very simple 3-4 step starting instructions on the refrigerator magnet for my wife to follow if she needs to.
Treating a little 100g fuel cube for winter temperatures is not a problem providing the you're diligent about it, and with a block heater you have no worries. It's also handy having fuel on hand for your tractor.

 

[bigtiller]

This one in my corn field has it's own heated shed to power a cell phone tower...

 

[ponytug]

@Rustyiron you have the most gorgeous generator shed. Every time I see a photo, I am just in wonder of it.

All the best, Peter

 

[EddieWalker]

Reading the comments on this thread I've started to wonder if I've been planning this all wrong. I have a 1,200 amp electric panel in a box by my power pole. I'm using three of the 200 amp breakers to power my house and my moms house. My long term plan is to divert one of the 200 amp lines to my shop when I build it and combining the two 200 amp panels in my house into just one 200 amp panel.

If I put the generate out at the pole where the 1,200 amp panel is, I'm wondering if I can power everything from there. The Natural gas line is about the same distance from my house as it is from the pole. I'd have to run it to both places since I want Natural gas inside my house for heating, cooking and the water heater. I'd also end up with two meters instead of one. I'm not sure if that matters other than the cost of the install. It would also mean that I would have to buy a much bigger generator. But in the long term of things, one big generator would be better than two smaller ones. I think?

 

[ponytug]

@EddieWalker these days, I would think about generator plus battery, especially because with some of the free nights power plans in Texas, you could put your batteries to good use when not needed for backup.

Part of the reason for batteries is that when you need to run he generator, you can run generator at optimal fuel efficiency all the time. If a generator isn't reasonably loaded, the fixed inefficiencies start to add up. So, batteries can take care of light to moderate loads until they hit a state of charge that needs recharging, and then the generator or generators comes on line.

If you go the two generator route, I would consider trying to find models that could be run in parallel. That way, the generators can spend more of their time in "optimal" zones for power output and efficiency.

Given your space, I wouldn't rule out some solar.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Highlandr]

I'd also end up with two meters instead of one. I'm not sure if that matters other than the cost of the install.

When we built the detached garage/shop (one year after the house) I told the contractor I wanted a separate meter*. He said, "No you don't." Because...

Double Customer Service Charges: Each meter is treated as a separate account by Duke Energy, which means you will likely pay double the base monthly customer fees, taxes, and distribution charges.

Higher Rates: Duke Energy will classify detached structures with a second meter (such as a garage, workshop, or barn) under a commercial rate, which is higher than residential rates.

If you ever install solar, it generally can only be connected to one meter.

So that's here in NC, with Duke. No idea if those things apply where you are in TX.


* My thought was I would run my after-retirement woodworking business out of the shop and it would be easier to classify the power used as a business expense if it was a separate meter.

 

[bdhsfz6]

lol... I was leaning the other way, for a few reasons, in order of importance:

1. Location of propane tank is more favorable than location of oil tank.
2. Concerns with oil performance in cold weather. It's often below 0F when we lose power.
3. The relative ubiquity of propane-fired generators. Face it, they're everywhere, and options abound.

I'll admit we could bury the oil line deep to manage freezing, although we'd be snaking thru a half-dozen other utilities in that area. But still, the last several feet and the generator itself are in the cold. With our oil tank being in our basement, it's totally un-treated for cold weather.

If diesel genny could be installed in basement, instead of outdoors, then there would be many advantages of going that route. But does anyone do that?

I installed a diesel in my detached garage. I fuel it from the oil storage tank in the house. The garage is not heated and I've had no problems in below zero weather. I'm using the 100A panel in the garage as a back feed now, but plan to install a transfer switch in the future.

Yes, it's loud and I wouldn't want it inside the house, but installed 50' away in the garage, it can barely be heard.

There are many diesel installations in out buildings in this part of the county. I'm not sure why, but it may be because fuel oil delivery & availability is more reliable than propane. During cold winters, propane is sometimes rationed when local supply is low.

This of course will vary with location. YMMV.

 

[grsthegreat]

I've seen a few commercial generators installed inside a building. Either on ground level, or in a basement.

LEGAL Interior generator installs ( inside a livable structure) is a real thing…but the inferstructure is tremendous. Between exhaust and air intake systems to fire suppression…..its major industrial design and machines. Not a home install thing…..the photos here of diesel units inside outbuildings would not fly where i live. Ive been involved in a permitted interior system on a huge mcmansion, and the cost of the projects was so far more expensive than the generator it was amazing. This included air quality management equipment that could control operation of generator, fire suppression systems, pressured air intake and exhaust systems that would not allow leaking into structure, external fuel storage with recovery tank monitoring and ability to hold entire contents of the double wall storage tank. And on and on.

But rich folk didnt care as long as he could impress his friends in his 2 week a year home.

 

[Rustyiron]

Here's my little Kubota 6500 lowboy in its insulated "dog house"

It's got 4" of foam all the way around it and wiring to a "porcelain" for a 100 watt bulb for heating.

I move it around with forks and there's a lifting eye in the ridge (under the coffee can) to drop it into a pickup.
It's a little shy for the house and I keep thinking about selling it but it'll pull my small welder that's handy occasionally.
Don't mind the colors, it was built around what was hanging around!

 

[ponytug]

Here's my little Kubota 6500 lowboy in its insulated "dog house"View attachment 5017510
It's got 4" of foam all the way around it and wiring to a "porcelain" for a 100 watt bulb for heating.
View attachment 5017511
I move it around with forks and there's a lifting eye in the ridge (under the coffee can) to drop it into a pickup.
It's a little shy for the house and I keep thinking about selling it but it'll pull my small welder that's handy occasionally.
Don't mind the colors, it was built around what was hanging around!

I'm impressed that the foam has held up to the heat!

All the best, Peter

 

[Rustyiron]

I'm impressed that the foam has held up to the heat!

All the best, Peter

I have venting on each end and operate it with the front doors open.
The insulation (and the 100w bulb) are to insure that it'll start when you're really counting on it like anything below freezing!

 

[Larry Caldwell]

2. Concerns with oil performance in cold weather. It's often below 0F when we lose power.
3. The relative ubiquity of propane-fired generators. Face it, they're everywhere, and options abound.

Diesel is good to 0F. If you get into negative numbers, a can of anti-gel in the tank is a good idea. The problem with diesel is getting the engine to start, which can take electricity.

The reason I went with propane is long term fuel storage. The last time I bought propane was 10 years ago. It was the only practical solution. OTOH, my mother heated with oil from a 500 gallon tank, so a new filter once a year ran her tractor and diesel generator just fine.

 

[Hunter29]

Anyone check out the Trane generator I posted?

Opinions?

 

[ning]

a "porcelain" for a 100 watt bulb for heating

consider a "ceramic heat emitter"

instead of a bulb - every last watt goes to heat, no light - lots more heat per watt - if you ever need to replace the bulb. (Also good for chicken coops; IMO set up a separate light (LED) and heater so that the heater can be on a thermostat and the light on a timer.)

General back-up generator question: Reading some of the specs (eg that Trane mentioned a few posts back) I see a fairly typical temperature/oil-type chart:

Is it expected that people living in a mixed climate of 0°F winter / 85°F summer change the oil out in spring & summer? Or do you go with 0w40 to make sure it starts in winter, at the cost of extra wear in the probably less likely summer use? Consider also that many such system are set up to have monthly test exercise runs.

 

[jfh28]

when I had my generator installed it was by an electrician who also specialized in generator installation......he took care of the generator, pad, transfer switch and panel and did the final hook-up and run through.....I did have to have a plumber install the gas (propane) line to the generator separately.....he tapped into the existing pipe inside the house and extended it through the wall and out to the generator......when I was first thinking about the size of generator to get I was thinking the entire house until the electrician said "remember the generator is for an emergency, not everyday comfort"......we talked about what the necessities would be to have running in a power outage (well pump, fridge, hvac, hot water, pellet stove, kit outlets, some outlets and lights around the house) and settled on a 7k size.....I have to say that I've been very happy with what it runs......sure it's inconvenient that not everything works but it's a whole lot better then nothing working....lol......you should also note that when the generator is running it drinks up propane like there's no tomorrow so you might want to consider having a separate tank installed just for the generator that you can keep filled

 

[ponytug]

consider a "ceramic heat emitter"
View attachment 5017611
instead of a bulb - every last watt goes to heat, no light - lots more heat per watt - if you ever need to replace the bulb. (Also good for chicken coops; IMO set up a separate light (LED) and heater so that the heater can be on a thermostat and the light on a timer.)

General back-up generator question: Reading some of the specs (eg that Trane mentioned a few posts back) I see a fairly typical temperature/oil-type chart:
View attachment 5017612

Is it expected that people living in a mixed climate of 0°F winter / 85°F summer change the oil out in spring & summer? Or do you go with 0w40 to make sure it starts in winter, at the cost of extra wear in the probably less likely summer use? Consider also that many such system are set up to have monthly test exercise runs.

To answer your question @ning, we are supposed to follow the manufacturer recommendations.

Sometimes, I wonder what the engineers who specify oils are thinking. There's not a much of a difference between 5W and 10W oil for cold starting. There's is more of a difference between 40W and 50W oil.

When under load generators will be at their operating temperature, so unless the manufacturer has chosen poorly for cooling at higher temperatures, the difference between oils at engine operating temperatures should be very similar.

Personally, it has been my experience that many generator owners don't follow the daily oil checks and oil service intervals when operating under backup conditions. I've seen manuals from major vendors that suggest at least as frequently as 100hr oil changes in backup mode, more frequently if heavily loaded or the outside temperatures are hot.

So, for many owners, that oil chart matters just for starting (barely in my nonprofessional opinion), and after that, the owner will be doing an oil change every couple of days. (This is not the case for the diesel liquid cooled generators that I have worked with, so YMMV, and my $0.02 is read the whole owner's manual before purchasing.)

All the best,

Peter