Chainsaw kickback and safety

Green4Me · May 3, 2005

no offense taken. however if you are trimming at high rpm and that tip hits wrong, the first indication you get is when it slaps you up side of the head. no i will trim at lower revs where i can feel the indication of a kick back and have controll. good luck and we'll have to agree to disagree.

woodlot · May 4, 2005

Beenthere - if the links on the bottom of the bar "grab" the saw will kick forward away from you not back at you.......correct? Ever have a brain fart and set the saw on the wood before rev'ing it up? The saw will try to jump forward away from you. I think the only way for it to come back at you is if the links on the TOP of the bar "grab." I believe this is true at any rpm. I guess what I'm trying to say is proper cutting technique will save you from kickbacks more than anything else. Watch your tip, whenever possible cut with the bottom of the bar, keep a sharp chain, and most important, as someone already said, if you tired put down that saw! I do cut with full revs on 99% of all cuts, but full rev is vague as to rpms. My fastest saw is a Jonserud and at full rev is proibly doing twice the rpm of my slowest saw, a Homelight. The faster saws are just as prone to top of the bar pinch-type kickback as that Homelight.

viking65 · May 4, 2005

I didn't scrutinize that pictures as much as you did. They scared the S*** out of me. I went to my Stihl dealer were I recently bought my MS361 20" chainsaw and picked up the forestry helmet with full wraparound face shield and ear protection, 6 layer chaps and gloves with the same protective material as in the chaps. After looking at those picture and reading the information I felt like such an idiot, out there cutting with just a regular pair of leather gloves and safety glasses for the past several weeks. Maybe I went to the extreme but I feel a lot safer.

beenthere · May 4, 2005

woodlot
I agree 100% with you. I do a lot of cutting (estimate 50% about) with the top side of the bar, revved up and cutting. Sometimes, when in a pile of tangled tops, the tip will catch another limb and kick up. With both hands on the saw, and the weight of the saw, no serious kickback. That hasn't been my experience with smaller saws or the electric ones.

My neighbor was 'one-handing' a saw and reaching high to prune a limb. The saw bound a bit, sending it back at him. He had one hand in the air that caught the moving chain right in the palm. Pretty severe wound.

A professional logger I knew, told me when he was in the hospital, how when cutting walnut trees (the buyer wanted all stumps level with the ground, and no notch so as not to lose any wood) his saw pinched on the upper side teeth, sending the saw back out the cut and across his kneeling leg, just above the knee-cap. He wasn't wearing chaps. Took a long operation to connect the severed tendons, as they were all shortened by the chain taking out over 1/4" on each one. He is walking now, with a limp.

I always wear chaps. Have had two mishaps wearing them, and both were 'out of the blue' and a result of non-normal brush cutting, where brush caught the saw and tipped the chain into my leg. Fortunately, the chaps paid the price, not my leg.

My point, any 'kickback' has been when the chain has been at much less speed than full rev of the saw. It stands to reason that the chain teeth cannot grab into the wood at high speed.
Pinching the blade is a bit different, and can cause movement back towards the person suddenly. But good posture that has been mentioned is what will protect the body.

slowzuki · May 4, 2005

When the chain comes around the tip, the "rakers" or depth gauges can not limit the bite each cutter takes very effectively making it suscepible to kickback.

Small diameter limbs also are not effectively controled by the rakers as the rounded profile lets them fit inbetween.

Also, bar pushout and kickback are two different things. Pushout can lead to kickback as the tip emerges.

beenthere · May 4, 2005

Slowzuki
I've no disagreement with the good points you mention. I use the tip to make plunge cuts regularly, and when starting the plunge cut, some 'kick' can take place. Nothing uncontrollable however.
When I cut with the top of the bar, it is usually with the tip clear and free of contact with wood.

When I buck logs up on the ground for firewood, I touch the log with the tip to mark the log (divide its length up in equal firewood lengths close to 18"). Then I make all the top cuts down to just before the kerf closes or when getting close to the ground (whichever happens first). Then I roll the log 180° and finish all the cuts with the top of the blade, by inserting the blade and bringing the bar up. This is where a slow chain speed will nudge you in the groin if not careful /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

woodlot · May 4, 2005

after rolling the log 180 why don't you cut down?

beenthere · May 4, 2005

Then the sawcuts might not match and the log end will have a 'step' on it. Just doesn't look good. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And, the chips go forward and not into my face or down my shirt collar. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And I think it is faster, and less bark dirt hits the chain, etc., etc., /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Less bending over, as I have a 20" bar and don't have to stoop or kneel on one knee. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

JimR · May 4, 2005

Any saw can kick back on you. if you have a fear of using a saw, don't use it. You should always be prepared for a kickback if cutting with the end of the bar or undercutting. I have had many kickbacks over the years with no damage to me whatsoever. Lucky? Maybe, but I am always prepared for it if it does happen. My woodpile from a few very large trees.

beenthere · May 4, 2005

I agree.
That is a nice pile of wood. A lot of stacking to do, but maybe you just use it that way?

JINMA224XR · May 5, 2005

Any saw can kick back on you. if you have a fear of using a saw, don't use it. 

Hey JimR,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that one.

From my own personel experience, If I did not do things that I had a fear of, I would have not gotten very much done using power tools throughout my life.

Fear IMHO, is a tool that can also be used usefully to accomplish any given task. Using the tool safely is the key and using The Fear Factor, to help keep yourself focused on doing it safely, can be very useful. Uncontrolled Fear or Panic, However, is not helpful and should be avoided. I can see that Uncontrolled Fear or Panic, could get one's throat cut---So To Speak.

Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

JimR · May 5, 2005

Fear can also kill you. Fear can make you very skiddish and not have full control of what you are doing. It should make you more alert. But I have seen the opposite in some people. Using a chain saw is not one of the things that you should be in this case. You should also be physically fit so that you can stop that chainsaw from hitting you in case you do have a kickback. On my last tree cutting job I pinched the bar on my big McCulloch Pro Mac 650 with a 26 inch bar. This is a very heavy and powerful saw. That bar kicked back so fast I almost didn't have time to catch it. Fortunately the chain brake worked and stopped the chain. I have found that a smaller saw is much more controllable versus a big saw. I believe it is because more power equals faster kickback. Here's a picture of my last fun project. At the top of the tree with the branches missing is where I was perched to limb this tree. I was hooked onto a rope with a harness. I think that perch is 35-40 feet up.

PhilNH5 · May 5, 2005

Beenthere,
I don't cut nearly as much as you do and you have helped me a lot on this board so I have one more question.

If I am "cutting up" ie using the top of the chainsaw wouldnt any rotational kickback send the saw into the wood? I have thought this to be true and feel safer when cutting up into the wood.

Phil

slowzuki · May 5, 2005

The problem cutting up is if you get push out and the bar walks outs, the kickback zone (top 1/2 of the tip) comes in direct contact with wood and nothing is left above the bar to catch it when it kicks.

This will toss the bar upwards and hopefully activate your chainbrake, or swing past your shoulder, or be controlled by your good grip on the saw.

JINMA224XR · May 5, 2005

Fear can make you very skiddish and not have full control of what you are doing. It should make you more alert. But I have seen the opposite in some people. I believe it is because more power equals faster kickback. 

Hey Jim,

I would classify that as Uncontrolled fear, and I agree with you, that if any person has so much fear, that they cannot control it and use the Fear Energy to be more alert and focused on using the Chainsaw or any other Power Tool in the correct manner and observing accepted safe operating techniques, then that person, should not operate the power tool.

On the other hand, if I had let fear prevent me from using my power tools, I would have missed out on a lot of accomplished projects and the satisfaction of saying, I did it myself, saved a ton of money, and learned to control and use my fear to my advantage.

Learn to control your fear &
Have a nice day,
Joe

MrJoe · May 5, 2005

After this thread started I went and bought a set of chaps. Already had the hardhat w/ muffs and faceshield. Nine ply Huskavarna (sp?)brand. they were a little longer than the Stiel brand and covered the top of my boot. You can't even walk into the ER for the $80 they cost. Came in handy when working in the sticker bushes too, no worries about ripping or thorns in the pants /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bczoom · May 5, 2005

Keep the safety posts coming (chaps, helmet, fear/respect...) as I need a fresh dose.

I need to go cut down an oak tree this afternoon at a community park. I haven't seen it yet but the guy that's doing it with me told me our 20" bars may not make it 1/2 way through so I need to bring the 28". /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I told him my inventory of what I'm bringing. His only question was "Helmet and chaps??". I still don't know why he and others don't wear the safety equipment. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

PS. Can anyone give me an idea of how much a cord or so of oak would weigh? My trailer bed is 6.5 x 18' but only rated for 7K pounds. How high can I stack it? I'm "guessing probably not more than about 18" which would equate to 1.33 cord.

Brian

Egon · May 5, 2005

Green oak should come in at around 40 - 45 pounds per cubic foot.

Egon

bczoom · May 5, 2005

Thanks Egon,

Sounds like I'll be at GVWR at 1' deep. Probably shouldn't go much higher than that.

Brian

Varmintmist · May 5, 2005

( I told him my inventory of what I'm bringing. His only question was "Helmet and chaps??". I still don't know why he and others don't wear the safety equipment.)

I agree. Drives me nuts to see people not even wear EAR PROTECTION. I saw two guys cutting out of a pile yesterday, not a single piece of defensive equipment anywhere around them.
That said, I did not always use gear either. Glasses were always on but I learned about the rest later.

I havent been able to convince me to buy the helmet, yet. But chaps, ears, good boots, gloves and eye protection are a must. I have a few hard hats around, I just hate them. I like to be able to look up.