Another Question for electricians...

[thclimer]

Was this a meter socket or an actual panel?
My wife was watching one of those "flipper" tv shows a while back that was set in Florida and it didn't seem all that uncommon for the breaker panel to be outside. WTF?? Is that a thing there? Why would you want the breaker box outside?

When I was in Southern California all the newer houses that I looked at had their electrical panels mounted on an outside wall, I never understood that coming from the East coast.

 

[ultrarunner]

It would seem cost effective to use combo panels.

 

[grsthegreat]

It would seem cost effective to use combo panels.

Maybe on a small house. On the larger ones i usually wired, you generally had to run longer home runs on outside panels. We generally installed a meter outside with panel immediately inside … generally on the garage. Then placed a sub panel towards the middle of the house.

Made for smaller home run circuits.

On the really large houses over 8,000 sf we generally have additional panels at every floor. Ive wired houses here in idaho with 600 and 800 amps worth of service.

 

[ponytug]

Outdoor disconnects have been code required in many jurisdictions for some time. I believe it finally became a national code in 2020, NEC 230.235, now is 225.41 in the NEC 2023.

I do not know when or where it originated, but as @ultrarunner wrote, common in California for decades.

The logic is that for safety reasons, e.g. fire, the power can be disconnected at a single point outside the home, and it must be labelled "Emergency Disconnect".

To save costs, builders tend to use the main service panel disconnect as the emergency disconnect, rather than an $800 switch. For those doing renovations getting tagged with the electrical code non-compliance, the extra switch is likely to be the lowest cost solution, I suspect.

All the best,

Peter

 

[grsthegreat]

Outdoor disconnects have been code required in many jurisdictions for some time. I believe it finally became a national code in 2020, NEC 230.235, now is 225.41 in the NEC 2023.

I do not know when or where it originated, but as @ultrarunner wrote, common in California for decades.

The logic is that for safety reasons, e.g. fire, the power can be disconnected at a single point outside the home, and it must be labelled "Emergency Disconnect".

To save costs, builders tend to use the main service panel disconnect as the emergency disconnect, rather than an $800 switch. For those doing renovations getting tagged with the electrical code non-compliance, the extra switch is likely to be the lowest cost solution, I suspect.

All the best,

Peter

Actually, they make a relatively cheep 200 amp outdoor disconnect. Last one i purchased was about $150. There 3R weatherproof enclosed. Meet current exterior disconnect codes.

Also have small 200 amp beaker meter socket and with 8 spaces for around $250.

 

[Runner]

Outdoor disconnects have been code required in many jurisdictions for some time. I believe it finally became a national code in 2020, NEC 230.235, now is 225.41 in the NEC 2023.

My jurisdiction is still on the 2017 NEC. It will be interesting to see if they adopt the 2020 or later NEC without amending this. Seems like something no one around here would like except the police/fire departments.

 

[ponytug]

Actually, they make a relatively cheep 200 amp outdoor disconnect. Last one i purchased was about $150. There 3R weatherproof enclosed. Meet current exterior disconnect codes.

Also have small 200 amp beaker meter socket and with 8 spaces for around $250.

I wish I had that pricing here. Retail vs wholesale pricing? Or California vs Idaho pricing?

Regardless, I think that putting the main service panel outside saves relatively few dollars, if any, upfront, and brings issues later, at least in my experience in the form of more corrosion, I admit that corrosion depends a bit on local climate, but if I see it here in California, I suspect that the issue is pretty widespread.

@Runner, I agree that it is of primary benefit to firefighters, but given their importance to the community, I think it might be a small price to pay. It does help electrical workers as well.

All the best,

Peter

 

[grsthegreat]

My jurisdiction is still on the 2017 NEC. It will be interesting to see if they adopt the 2020 or later NEC without amending this. Seems like something no one around here would like except the police/fire departments.

Idaho always delayed adoption of newer codes or exemptions from some parts of the codes, but they adopted most of the newer codes except requirements for arkfaulting entire house (at least for now). Exterior disconnects have been wanted/ required here by fire depts for some time

 

[grsthegreat]

I wish I had that pricing here. Retail vs wholesale pricing? Or California vs Idaho pricing?

Regardless, I think that putting the main service panel outside saves relatively few dollars, if any, upfront, and brings issues later, at least in my experience in the form of more corrosion, I admit that corrosion depends a bit on local climate, but if I see it here in California, I suspect that the issue is pretty widespread.

@Runner, I agree that it is of primary benefit to firefighters, but given their importance to the community, I think it might be a small price to pay. It does help electrical workers as well.

All the best,

Peter

Heck with wholesale houses. Just look at home depot or lowes

 

[Runner]

@Runner, I agree that it is of primary benefit to firefighters, but given their importance to the community, I think it might be a small price to pay. It does help electrical workers as well.

Understood, but everything can't be about what easiest for police and fire. Some people might not like the idea that just anyone can walk up to the outside of their home and turn off their electricity.

This kind of government overreach (IMO) gets written into codes and unfortunately, people aren't aware of it until it negatively affects them. Then, it can be a problem to get it back out of the code, particularly if the public safety people are lobbying for it.

 

[ultrarunner]

Understood, but everything can't be about what easiest for police and fire. Some people might not like the idea that just anyone can walk up to the outside of their home and turn off their electricity.

This kind of government overreach (IMO) gets written into codes and unfortunately, people aren't aware of it until it negatively affects them. Then, it can be a problem to get it back out of the code, particularly if the public safety people are lobbying for it.

This is an ongoing problem I have encountered with tenants and criminals in the city are known to flip outside breakers to get someone out of the house.

With tenants it’s been a disgruntled boy or girlfriend the most often.

Locking is not much of a deterrent as bending a few times often enough to break the tab.

 

[Runner]

Locking is not much of a deterrent as bending a few times often enough to break the tab.

Also, bolt cutters and battery grinders.

 

[ultrarunner]

My standard old 950 to 1200 square feet home upgrade consists of a weather head and combo exterior meter base and circuit breakers… and then the old 30 amp panel becomes a sub-panel.

Plus the ground rod and add bonding and GFCI where required.

Often the request is electric dryer driven and sometimes range.

The last few I was also required to install Edison Safety fuse inserts to limit replacement fuses to appropriate 15 and 20 amp.

800 amp residential is bigger than anything I have ever seen… the conductors must arrive by armored car.

 

[JRH02]

In addition to dressing up the inside of the panel, grounding comes to mind as I look through this thread. Especially when it comes to the water well pump. A lot of crazy things / symptoms that are hard to troubleshoot end up being related to grounding.

No, I'm not an electrician but I have done a LOT of 120 / 240 wiring and DC as well. Some things stick out to me even though I can't explain why it bothers me.

 

[Oaktree]

Understood, but everything can't be about what easiest for police and fire. Some people might not like the idea that just anyone can walk up to the outside of their home and turn off their electricity.

This kind of government overreach (IMO) gets written into codes and unfortunately, people aren't aware of it until it negatively affects them. Then, it can be a problem to get it back out of the code, particularly if the public safety people are lobbying for it.

That was one of my concerns, another is just the thought of having to go outside in inclement weather to reset a breaker. Not sure I'd want to do that in the pouring rain.

As far as a quick way for first responders to kill power, it's not very hard to pull a meter...

 

[grsthegreat]

Understood, but everything can't be about what easiest for police and fire. Some people might not like the idea that just anyone can walk up to the outside of their home and turn off their electricity.

This kind of government overreach (IMO) gets written into codes and unfortunately, people aren't aware of it until it negatively affects them. Then, it can be a problem to get it back out of the code, particularly if the public safety people are lobbying for it.

Tell that to a firefighter that needs to kill the power to a burning structure before pouring water on it. A main breaker deep within structure doesnt help. Here in idaho the fire dept simply cuts and pulls meter off if necessary.

Having a required exterior disconnect isnt deep state conspiracy.

 

[grsthegreat]

That was one of my concerns, another is just the thought of having to go outside in inclement weather to reset a breaker. Not sure I'd want to do that in the pouring rain.

As far as a quick way for first responders to kill power, it's not very hard to pull a meter...

Sometimes it is. Power companies are starting to use very heavy duty locking rings that require a special key to open. Im not sure if fire depts have access to these keys. Not sure every power company uses same key either. These tabs are so thick, a sawzall would have issue with them. There having to do this due to idiots that pull meters and hook up their welders and such to do projects without spinning the meter.

 

[ultrarunner]

That was one of my concerns, another is just the thought of having to go outside in inclement weather to reset a breaker. Not sure I'd want to do that in the pouring rain.

As far as a quick way for first responders to kill power, it's not very hard to pull a meter...

Are Meters Locked down with steel ring and keyed lock typical where you are.

The days of just a lead seal or snap plastic seal have been superseded with armor.

I’ve seen multifamily where the fire department just cuts the two hots from the aerial because it faster than dealing with a dozen meters.

 

[Runner]

That was one of my concerns, another is just the thought of having to go outside in inclement weather to reset a breaker. Not sure I'd want to do that in the pouring rain.

As far as a quick way for first responders to kill power, it's not very hard to pull a meter...

Somehow, they've managed to fight fires all these years without a switch to turn off the power from the outside. Now, all of a sudden, it's essential.

 

[ponytug]

Somehow, they've managed to fight fires all these years without a switch to turn off the power from the outside. Now, all of a sudden, it's essential.

Yes, by doing what @grsthegreat pointed out, cutting the wires to the meter. It takes time, and it isn't exactly safe.

As he wrote, it is really about helping save lives. Time matters.

All the best,

Peter