Another Question for electricians...

[Dftodd]

Thanks for your reply... So, the house is 10 years old... Modular, Nationwide (aka cheap). Are ark fault breakers "good" or should I replace them with GFCI? Money is not a problem and I can replace them. I would be fine with straight breakers and think GFCI is for wimps (but then there is "the code"...)

I will live with it another week (when I'm up there) just to make sure it's not tripping. My wife is an electrical engineer but knows nothing about this stuff (give her a mother board, she'll debug the heck out of it...)

I really want to find the root of the problem, I got time to figure it out....

How are the outlets wired???

Quite often on modular and manufactured homes, they use a push in connection on the back of the outlets instead of looping the wire around the screw terminals on the side of the outlet.

Those push in connections tend to get hinky after a while.

 

[grsthegreat]

FYI there are now breakers that screw in, replacing glass Edison-base fuses.

I bought a couple for a sub panel so I could respond to an insurance renewal questionaire with, 'Nope, no glass fuses here."

.?. A breaker to replace glass fuse? Never seen or heard of that.
Ive seen ones to replace automotive glass fuses, but not screw in.

Looking online ive found these chinese things….never tried one though. Kinda scary.

 

[ultrarunner]

That’s the one and they have been around for decades… and not always made overseas.

Last inspection I had to install safety fuses that will not accept a larger size fuse…

I have seen homes where every circuit had a 30 amp fuse where most should have had 15 amp.

 

[grsthegreat]

I have not worked on a house with screw in fuses for many, many years. Most insurance companied made owners swap those out many years ago. Surprised to see your still encountering them. Many years ago my liability company told me flat out not to work on any house with either Zinsco breakers or glass fuses! Unless i was tearing out the entire system. Too much liability.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have not worked on a house with screw in fuses for many, many years. Most insurance companied made owners swap those out many years ago. Surprised to see your still encountering them. Many years ago my liability company told me flat out not to work on any house with either Zinsco breakers or glass fuses! Unless i was tearing out the entire system. Too much liability.

Interesting… even homes tracts from the 1960’s have circuit breaker main with breakers for stove and oven and sub-panel.

Sub-panel in the back of the coat closet are 6 or 8 glass fuses.

Almost every 1950-60’s home around here has Federal with the split main so turning off power requires flipping several breakers.

 

[grsthegreat]

Interesting… even homes tracts from the 1960’s have circuit breaker main with breakers for stove and oven and sub-panel.

Sub-panel in the back of the coat closet are 6 or 8 glass fuses.

Almost every 1950-60’s home around here has Federal with the split main so turning off power requires flipping several breakers.

Weird, my parents lived in southern calif with a new house they purchased in 1960. It had a full GE 100 amp panel with30 breakers. My sister purchased a 1930’s era house which had 6 screw in fuses. I rewired her entire house with upgrade panel.

 

[ponytug]

Interesting… even homes tracts from the 1960’s have circuit breaker main with breakers for stove and oven and sub-panel.

Sub-panel in the back of the coat closet are 6 or 8 glass fuses.

Almost every 1950-60’s home around here has Federal with the split main so turning off power requires flipping several breakers.

@grsthegreat I think part of the issue is the mild climate, with low electrical demands, and partly lower incomes in @ultrarunner's area, so homes don't get upgraded much, or often.

@ultrarunner That's a whole bunch of old wiring. I've seen them, but not for decades. Don't quote me, but weren't they deprecated in something like 1980? And doesn't the CPSC suggest replacing breakers every so often, like every thirty or forty years or so? I'm surprised that the local insurers insure the homes, but perhaps there isn't home insurance?

I do remember thinking that the push button fuse replacements were a big advance on glass fuses since you didn't have to toss the fuse out when some circuit got overloaded.

As an aside: Although it predated the push button screw breakers, I think that the British took the user selected fuse idea to the extreme, and made porcelain fuses that had screw in fuse wire. You could make a 15A fuse in to a 30A fuse in under a minute. More commonly, you were fumbling around in the dark with a pathetic flashlight trying to see if this bit of fine wire was finer than that one, and therefore the 15A fuse wire. Usually there was a pile of bits of fuse wire somewhere in or on the fuse box. Not my favorite bit of electrical kit.

I'm not sure it helps @California much...

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

Edison Glass Fuses that were 4 for a $1.50 are $15 a box at the local hardware.

The push button replacement are very convenient and possibly economical.

I have some very old take apart glass Bakelite fuses with replacement strips… if it blows just unscrew and replace.

Americans… especially those that experienced the Great Depression often the most frugal… saved old bent nails because they can be straightened and reused.

I’m curious what a good 3 light outlet tester would show with a regular non GFCI receptacle and also the voltage you are seeing at the source and at the receptacle.

Not all GFCI are built the same… when I was buying a lot I found Hubble Hospital grade the best but also among the most expensive… never had one fail but plenty of Home Depot Contractor pack not last.

 

[rontaki]

Edison Glass Fuses that were 4 for a $1.50 are $15 a box at the local hardware.

The push button replacement are very convenient and possibly economical.

I have some very old take apart glass Bakelite fuses with replacement strips… if it blows just unscrew and replace.

Americans… especially those that experienced the Great Depression often the most frugal… saved old bent nails because they can be straightened and reused.

I’m curious what a good 3 light outlet tester would show with a regular non GFCI receptacle and also the voltage you are seeing at the source and at the receptacle.

Not all GFCI are built the same… when I was buying a lot I found Hubble Hospital grade the best but also among the most expensive… never had one fail but plenty of Home Depot Contractor pack not last.

Is it best to use copper pennies behind the blown screw-in fuse, or do the copper-coated zinc pennies provide some protection?

 

[California]

Many years ago my liability company told me flat out not to work on any house with either Zinsco breakers or glass fuses!

You'd love the goofy stuff here at the ranch. Zinsco 200A main panel then Zinsco 100A sub panel in the shop stall of the barn. Downstream from that, a modern panel in the guest cabin fed from a twin 50 amp breaker in that 100A barn panel.

A couple of years ago I plugged a 1500 watt heater into the dedicated 20A, single outlet circuit in the guest cabin bathroom. And another 1500 watt heater into the 20A outlet behind the cabin kitchen microwave. (opposite sides of the 240V source).

Running both those heaters smoked the 100A breaker at the head of the barn sub-panel.

After finding a NOS replacement I opened up the failed Zinsco 100A barn breaker. Found severe corrosion due to 50 years weather exposure in the the open-front shop stall. The barn exterior wall surface behind this panel, is just 1x12 redwood planks with minor gaps between them. (Photo)

Good thing our home in town isn't like this!

 

[ultrarunner]

Is it best to use copper pennies behind the blown screw-in fuse, or do the copper-coated zinc pennies provide some protection?

Seen Copper Pennies used…

I pulled one out and it was war time steel penny…

My guess is fuses not available with war time rationing and war effort production?

Picture below is identical to the service main I removed when I did a 100 amp 240 volt service upgrade

What I found interesting is one fuse for hot and one fuse for neutral… circa 1920.

Not recommended to attempt in the dark and always with a steady hand… other wise it tickles… as an old sparky said to me.

Pole to house, knob and tube to disconnect, disconnect to utility meter, utility meter to 2 circuit panel… 15 amp lights and 20 plugs.

 

[ultrarunner]

You'd love the goofy stuff here at the ranch. Zinsco 200A main panel then Zinsco 100A sub panel in the shop stall of the barn. Downstream from that, a modern panel in the guest cabin fed from a twin 50 amp breaker in that 100A barn panel.

A couple of years ago I plugged a 1500 watt heater into the dedicated 20A, single outlet circuit in the guest cabin bathroom. And another 1500 watt heater into the 20A outlet behind the cabin kitchen microwave. (opposite sides of the 240V source).

Running both those heaters smoked the 100A breaker at the head of the barn sub-panel.

After finding a NOS replacement I opened up the failed Zinsco 100A barn breaker. Found severe corrosion due to 50 years weather exposure in the the open-front shop stall. (Photo)

Good thing our home in town isn't like this!

Sounds like the 1855 out buildings and barn at the ranch… all strung overhead… the breaker is never left on unattended… only flipped on if checking livestock at night.

 

[rontaki]

Used Zinsco panel for sale - replace that unsafe Federal panel. Needs cleanup.

 

[ultrarunner]

Used Zinsco panel for sale - replace that unsafe Federal panel. Needs cleanup.

View attachment 3780991

Lighting Strike or Aluminum Alloy Buss Bar mega fail?

 

[California]

Lighting Strike or Aluminum Alloy Buss Bar mega fail?

"They all do that" is the common wisdom for Zinsco. They are infamous for not tripping when there is a short downstream.

 

[rontaki]

For the curious, the details are findable on the Web.

 

[Oaktree]

Used Zinsco panel for sale - replace that unsafe Federal panel. Needs cleanup.

View attachment 3780991

Was this a meter socket or an actual panel?
My wife was watching one of those "flipper" tv shows a while back that was set in Florida and it didn't seem all that uncommon for the breaker panel to be outside. WTF?? Is that a thing there? Why would you want the breaker box outside?

 

[JPRambo]

As a new residential electrician in 1982, I built a lot of weather proof services. Builder house plans were not reversed to put garage on service pole side of the lot. WP service was cheaper than extending service into the garage. Owners did not want the breaker panel in a bedroom or living room.

 

[ultrarunner]

Was this a meter socket or an actual panel?
My wife was watching one of those "flipper" tv shows a while back that was set in Florida and it didn't seem all that uncommon for the breaker panel to be outside. WTF?? Is that a thing there? Why would you want the breaker box outside?

Very common in California and especially for Service Upgrades

The combo meter base with service disconnect and 20 to 40 circuit breakers all in the same box.

In mountain vacation communities it is or was common to use living trees to run neighborhood utility lines… no need for utility poles.

Lots of meters and breaker boxes secured to trees also…

Only seen this in the Tahoe region.

 

[Dftodd]

Was this a meter socket or an actual panel?
My wife was watching one of those "flipper" tv shows a while back that was set in Florida and it didn't seem all that uncommon for the breaker panel to be outside. WTF?? Is that a thing there? Why would you want the breaker box outside?

The rental neighborhood i lived in for a couple years had the breaker panels outside next to the meter.

These were brand new homes 4 years ago.