Natural gas?

[ultrarunner]

...Getting back to gas for a second, that boom that leveled a house a week or so ago... multiple companies are still looking for the leak as of this AM. The neighborhood is evacuated around the explosion, 50 homes, and they are thinking to expand the area of evacuation.

...back to the Heat Pump engineering and specs information.

Yes… and sadly the looters wasted no time taking advantage of the situation.

I’m storing several of the service trucks from the home that exploded to keep them safe.

All the gas work was in the street and had nothing to do with the home that exploded.

 

[oosik]

Our 20+ years in Alaska was with natural gas. Gas was dirt cheap - electricity was sky high.

Gas ran everything in the house except - lights, refrigerator and freezer. We never had a moments problem using natural gas. During the big quake of '94 - gas remained on - electricity went out.

Even our clothes dryer was natural gas. Had a Modine hanging space heater in the garage. Turn that thing on high and it would really roast your walnuts. After a 4WD run in the winter. Turn the space heater on high - melt all the ice build up on my Jeep - right pronto.

 

[ultrarunner]

Our 20+ years in Alaska was with natural gas. Gas was dirt cheap - electricity was sky high.

Gas ran everything in the house except - lights, refrigerator and freezer. We never had a moments problem using natural gas. During the big quake of '94 - gas remained on - electricity went out.

Even our clothes dryer was natural gas. Had a Modine hanging space heater in the garage. Turn that thing on high and it would really roast your walnuts. After a 4WD run in the winter. Turn the space heater on high - melt all the ice build up on my Jeep - right pronto.

Similar here where home electric service 120v 30 amp because all high demand was natural gas which traditionally was reasonable.

I’ve been in nearby homes that still had the gas light fixtures that were years ago converted to electric… Oakland CA

 

[DarkBlack]

The above system will give you 14,500 BTU/h of heat at -5F outside air temp.

Where are you getting that figure from?

10,900 BTU’s/h at +5F. -5F would be much worse.
Yes, I know that graph I posted was of heating capacity, but unless you or the factory posts an actual temperature of 100% efficiency, or at least a power consumption vs temperature chart, then I’d have to assume the power consumption is nameplate, and unity ( 100% efficiency) must be at/near the sudden drop in capacity.

Actual power consumption seems an elusive specification with this model.
What is the power consumption at 5F? 10,900 BTUs is time equal to 3.2 kw.
Is it drawing substantially less power than 3.2 kw? That’s the heat of 32 100w light bulbs.
@230 volts that would be 14 amps. Does the indoor and outdoor units combined draw less than that?

 

[rontaki]

Similar here where home electric service 120v 30 amp because all high demand was natural gas which traditionally was reasonable.

I’ve been in nearby homes that still had the gas light fixtures that were years ago converted to electric… Oakland CA

They're still gaslighting in our capitol buildings throughout the nation.

 

[Sigarms]

Where are you getting that figure from?

View attachment 5052231

10,900 BTU’s/h at +5F. -5F would be much worse.
Yes, I know that graph I posted was of heating capacity, but unless you or the factory posts an actual temperature of 100% efficiency, or at least a power consumption vs temperature chart, then I’d have to assume the power consumption is nameplate, and unity ( 100% efficiency) must be at/near the sudden drop in capacity.

Actual power consumption seems an elusive specification with this model.
What is the power consumption at 5F? 10,900 BTUs is time equal to 3.2 kw.
Is it drawing substantially less power than 3.2 kw? That’s the heat of 32 100w light bulbs.
@230 volts that would be 14 amps. Does the indoor and outdoor units combined draw less than that?

My information is from the up to date submittal sheet (new FX model) from Mitsubishi's technical website.

The issue on your end is you're using the RATED heating capacity and not the maximum heating capacity at @5F OAT because they don't list the maximum heating capacity. The old FH models go down to -13F OAT which is what "hyper heat" really means per Mitsubishi's "name brand marketing gimmick name" (they hit a home run with it though IMO).

You hit the nail on the head though when dealing with the Japanese. Each manufacturer does things a little different on how they present their info and how easy and how hard it is to find because each manufacturer does it differently on exactly where to pull that info.

We can go back and fourth all day long on this. What I can tell you from my own experience is if a Manual J is done correct, you chose the right system for heating, and it will heat all day long to 5F outside air temp. That said, we don't get many days below 0F OAT to see how the system actually performs for heating in our world.

You made me look. I have some questions on their engineering data that I'm questioning and now I'll have to call to find out why they are listing what I could consider conflicting info (unless I'm just reading it wrong).

 

[ning]

I have one. I have never used it. I used a stove top toaster years ago when I was camping, but that was more trouble than it was worth.

View attachment 5045658

I used a top-of-burner toaster for years growing up until we got a toaster oven.
Pros: Toasts really quick, so you tend to stick around paying attention to it, unlike an electric toaster.
Cons: Burns the %$!@% out of your bread. You want fire? That's how you get fire, use that toaster.

 

[RayIN]

I have one. I have never used it. I used a stove top toaster years ago when I was camping, but that was more trouble than it was worth.

View attachment 5045658

I agree. One of our daughters bought us a square broiler on a long handle. It works for many things; toast, hot dogs, steaks, burgers, even veggies if wanted, etc.
This stock picture has a short handle though.

 

[kenmac]

We can go back and fourth all day long on this. What I can tell you from my own experience is if a Manual J is done correct, you chose the right system for heating, and it will heat all day long to 5F outside air temp. That said, we don't get many days below 0F OAT to see how the system actually performs for heating in our world.

I can tell you my Gree Ducted VRF will heat all day long in the 6's OAT with no problems .. And my unit is going on 7 yrs old now. Our temps here haven't been below 6 deg since I installed the system.

 

[ponytug]

I can tell you my Gree Ducted VRF will heat all day long in the 6's OAT with no problems .. And my unit is going on 7 yrs old now. Our temps here haven't been below 6 deg since I installed the system.

How many BTUs, and what is the construction of your home like?

All the best,

Peter

 

[Sigarms]

I can tell you my Gree Ducted VRF will heat all day long in the 6's OAT with no problems .. And my unit is going on 7 yrs old now. Our temps here haven't been below 6 deg since I installed the system.

If I didn't have that option of running a gas line to the home at no charge, I would have definitely been running a inverter system capable of handling very cold weather.

I've really grown fond of Bosch over the last 5 years or so. I find that ironic because I thought they were hocus pocus 15 years ago when the distributors were pushing them when they first came out like 15 years or so. No AHRI rating and you could put their coil and inverter outdoor unit with any blower?? LOL

Ironically enough, yesterday I brought home a Bosch heat pump and coil along with a 80% gas furnace for the home we're going to be selling for the attic install. A lot of manufacturers went with a 2 stage compressor with the new SEER2 mandatory AHRI ratings even in their base models (only 14.3 SEER2 ratings though). For the price difference, Bosch made more sense to me.

 

[ponytug]

@Sigarms and you like the Bosch because of...? The ability to put any coil on it? I'm just trying to follow the train of thought here.

Thanks, and the best,

Peter

 

[Carl_NH]

Actual power consumption seems an elusive specification with this model.
What is the power consumption at 5F? 10,900 BTUs is time equal to 3.2 kw.
Is it drawing substantially less power than 3.2 kw? That’s the heat of 32 100w light bulbs.
@230 volts that would be 14 amps. Does the indoor and outdoor units combined draw less than that?

I have checked amps years ago on the 9K Mitsubishi Hyper heat model and was around 6.5-7 Amps 230V at the max setting and in normal mode once it reaches temp in the space was between 2-2.5 A 230V steady state.

 

[ponytug]

I have checked amps years ago on the 9K Mitsubishi Hyper heat model and was around 6.5-7 Amps 230V at the max setting and in normal mode once it reaches temp in the space was between 2-2.5 A 230V steady state.

Thanks. So a COP of around 1.6. How cold was it?

All the best, Peter

 

[Sigarms]

@Sigarms and you like the Bosch because of...? The ability to put any coil on it? I'm just trying to follow the train of thought here.

Thanks, and the best,

Peter

Bosch controls their indoor coil temp (for both heat and cool) with their outdoor inverter compressor and their algorithm on their control board.

It's a smart system that can use any dumb (even a single stage heat single stage cool) 24V thermostat.

When you buy most ducted (air handler / blower) systems that uses a inverter compressor, you're required to buy a proprietary communicating thermostat provided only by that manufacturer to control the air flow (using variable speed constant air flow blower motor) to help control the coil temperature.

There is a old saying I tell people... "friends don't let their friends buy proprietary communicating thermostats that is only sold by THAT manufacturer". They can charge you whatever they want, and if you don't use THAT thermostat, the system will not work.

Bosch offers two air handlers. The basic one is a PSC blower motor which in now unheard of in the HVAC industry. The next upgrade (to a higher SEER2 rating) is a X13 blower (variable speed constant torque motor). On top of that, you could use any aftermarket PSC or X13 blower motor for replacement if you needed to (if under warranty, makes no sense to spend money on the motor if you can get it under warranty per OEM motor).

I thought Bosch and their line of thinking was hocus pokus, but after slowing learning about them and then starting to try them out, the more I liked them.

Now, all that said, given your set of circumstances (time) and if you could afford geothermal and what you need for piping, I'd still go that route. The thought crossed my mind at the house we're renovating, but all things given, I'm more than fine with what I'm doing and replacing per what was there.

Going in the house we're going to sell...

Please note, Bosch outdoor heat pump and bosch coil. ICP 80% gas furnace. Bosch IMO is overpriced on their 96% two stage X13 gas furnaces, and way overpriced on their air handlers BUT they rate per AHRI.

Thing is, NC is like no other state when it comes to the inspections department and AHRI ratings where no one else really cares LOL (not pulling a permit at our house we're selling, but the GC pulled a permit at the house we're buying LOL)

 

[ponytug]

@Sigarms thanks! I found that post very informative and helpful.

I'd love to put in geothermal here, but my choices are either renting an excavator and doing it myself, or no geothermal. Geothermal is basically unheard of here, which means almost nobody does it, they do it rarely, so they are out of practice, and as a result megabucks pricey, which gives an ROI of forever. Just the first 100' from the house are basically hand trench only for a variety of hazards.$$$

All the best,

Peter

 

[Sigarms]

@Sigarms thanks! I found that post very informative and helpful.

I'd love to put in geothermal here, but my choices are either renting an excavator and doing it myself, or no geothermal. Geothermal is basically unheard of here, which means almost nobody does it, they do it rarely, so they are out of practice, and as a result megabucks pricey, which gives an ROI of forever. Just the first 100' from the house are basically hand trench only for a variety of hazards.$$$

All the best,

Peter

Peter, If I remember correctly, you were using something very efficient and honestly something I don't come across that much in NC. Something with water?

End of the day, all of us are kind of held captive to our local area on what people know to install AND service per what kind of equipment is sold in our general market.

 

[ponytug]

Peter, If I remember correctly, you were using something very efficient and honestly something I don't come across that much in NC. Something with water?

End of the day, all of us are kind of held captive to our local area on what people know to install AND service per what kind of equipment is sold in our general market.

Good memory! I am trying to get a split heat pump for hot water. I found a brand that I like, but working on finding an installer. The first one I spoke with quoted me 4x what I happen to know he charged another customer. Still working on that one.

At the moment, we have 95% rated hot air propane furnace. In parallel, looking for replacements for the propane furnace. Given the winter cost of power, currently $0.35-$0.45/kWh, the performance (COP/HSPF) at 32F-40F is our main focus. An Infinitely variable compressor would be really nice, and a quiet blower would be even nicer.

All the best,

Peter

 

[kenmac]

How many BTUs, and what is the construction of your home like?

All the best,

Peter

It's rated @ 48,000 BTU
It normally runs around 15-18 HZ unless it has to ramp up in extreme heat / cold

Brick construction with vinyl soffits .

 

[kenmac]

If I didn't have that option of running a gas line to the home at no charge, I would have definitely been running a inverter system capable of handling very cold weather.

I've really grown fond of Bosch over the last 5 years or so. I find that ironic because I thought they were hocus pocus 15 years ago when the distributors were pushing them when they first came out like 15 years or so. No AHRI rating and you could put their coil and inverter outdoor unit with any blower?? LOL

Ironically enough, yesterday I brought home a Bosch heat pump and coil along with a 80% gas furnace for the home we're going to be selling for the attic install. A lot of manufacturers went with a 2 stage compressor with the new SEER2 mandatory AHRI ratings even in their base models (only 14.3 SEER2 ratings though). For the price difference, Bosch made more sense to me.

When I bought this farm house I was going to rip out the old Trane HP and install a 90+ nat, gas furnace with a inverter straight A/C condenser. But I decided to give this ducted VRF a try. I must say I've been pleased and impressed at the same time.
If I manage to out live this VRF, I may just go with the 90+ nat. gas furnace and inverter A/C condenser next round.