Shop/Garage Heater

/ Shop/Garage Heater #41  
Where did that top one come from? That looks like what I need. Two of those in the shop and one in the garage.

RSKY
They sell that exact model in our Canadian costcos... also Canadian tire...

In my opinion you're better off with two in the garage as well and you can leave one off while the other maintains the heat in the garage.

The only issues with the ceiling mounted ones is that they blow heat down and it doesn't get very far laterally. They maybe blow a radius of 7ft which means your walls will be cooler than the center of the garage...

My friend has a 20x24 ft by 9ft high garage and although it is capable of maintaining the temperature and slowly to heat up the garage, the windows and garage doors get condensation /slight frost which is why I am recommending a ceiling one and one wall type in order to blow air in the doors direction and cause circulation.
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #42  
And aren稚 all of these wonder box heaters resistance heat? I知 thinking theyæ±*e full of crap and are equal to any electric resistance heater.

I think you are referring to the radiant electric heaters. They put out the same amount of heat (BTUs) as any other resistance heater. However, since they are radiant, they will tend to directly heat objects rather than heat the air which heats the objects. Sounds good but you get the campfire effect. You toast the side facing the heater and freeze the opposite side (until objects heat up enough to transfer heat to the air.)
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #43  
I have a couple of infrared electirc heaters hanging from the ceiling of my partially insulated pole barns. One is I think 5000w, maybe 7500w? I know it is on a 30amp 220v breaker. I work under it at a work table doing wood projectss, furniture etc in Northern Michigan. Outside temps in teens. My head is warm, hands might be cool in light brown cotton gloves, and feet are cold in snowmobile boots. It runs off a thermostat, located about 15ft away, chest high. Get out of the downward cone of heat and it is cold. Get under it and you warm up. This works because I can't have NG or propane. My came from Northern Tool catalog. Jon
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #44  
Several manufacturers are now making condensing type gas unit heaters. Around $1200 for a 50K BTU one That is the smallest one I have seen. If you are looking for efficiency and can afford it that is the way to go. Both NG and PG are available. Vents are PVC pipe. I ma considering one.

Ron
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater
  • Thread Starter
#45  
No wood or any other heaters that need a vent or flue in the shop or needs daily tending. This has to be something that could be set and left. We travel some in the winter and I need to keep things from freezing while being untended for a week or two. As for the gas line look at my original post. The gas company is VERY strict as to how anything is installed and will cut off service until anything they feel needs correcting is corrected. And if your usage jumps by a considerable amount they will come out and look. By the time I paid for burying a line and having vents, etc. installed I could pay the electric bill for many, many years. Propane is out because I don't want another tank in the yard. We finally got rid of the one we had when they ran the gas line. And that would be another expense, buying a tank and having it installed.

I am looking at the cost over a ten to twenty year period. This is not something I must have to make a living. I want heat so I can go out and tinker around and not drive my wife nuts. I am 63 and by the time I'm 83 I doubt if I will be going out and working as much as I do now.

Also consider that where I am located we only have three months that the average LOW temp is below freezing. So say it would be half of ninety days or 45-60 days that the heater would be needed to prevent freezing temps in the shop. And only about 30-45 days when a lot of heat would be needed for comfortable working. And another 30-45 days when some heat could be used to 'knock the chill off'. For no more than that I don't intend to invest a lot of money.

I am now leaning towards having twin electric heaters installed. Have one set about 35-40F and the other turned completely off. When I want to work I will flip the switch and fire both up. That would be a lot less expensive than running a gas line and installing a natural gas heater. The second heater would only cost for the extra wiring, thermostat, and the heater itself. Of course this would be more expensive to operate but it would take years to catch up with the cost of the natural gas installation.

As for the garage I am going to start the installation of the insulation next week. This is going to be a huge job because a lot of stuff is going to have to be moved. A workbench torn out. Large shelves unloaded and moved. Wiring changed around. You get the idea. After it is insulated I think a very small heater will keep it warm. Most of our wind comes out of the southwest and the garage is protected by the house on those sides.

Thanks for all the suggestions and keep the ideas coming. Sounds like more than me are interested in this topic.

RSKY
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #46  
I ran a small milk-house heater for the chickens, once-upon-a-time. At the end of that month my electric bill was $600. At 0.28 per KWH + any other stupid add-on fees they can think up made anything electric very undesirable.

My 24x32 garage is heated with an oil forced air furnace with a set-back thermostat. Costs around $150 per month in the winter. I personally would love to have vented propane furnaces but they are spendy.
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #47  
Gas tubular radiant heaters.

Higher up front cost, but the comfort level is night and day compared to a unit heater, added it will save you fuel comsumption (big ROI if using LP). Biggest advantage however is with large overhead doors and the heat loss and heat recovery time when doors are opened and closed in the winter months.

Biggest drawback is ensure clearance to combustibles and you need to ensure they're laid out right to maximize the coverage area.

Fire stations even in NC use them pretty regularly.

Also remember, when using a gas unit heater, most are 80% AFUE. If doing a load on the structure, a 60k unit heater will give out 48,000 BTU/h of heat.
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #48  
I think you have a very logical grasp on your needs and your wants. I agree with your solutions. Sounds like you are going to solve this Winter's boredom with the upcoming insulation project!!! We'll need updates of course!!! :)
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #49  
You've ruled out NG, LPG, oil, & wood. Have you looked into some form of passive solar augmented by a heat pump?

I recently had an addition about the size of your garage put on a house and we went with a heat pump. Very efficient, easy to install.

/edit - my bad it was a minisplit, not just a heat pump.
 
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/ Shop/Garage Heater #50  
As for the garage I am going to start the installation of the insulation next week. This is going to be a huge job because a lot of stuff is going to have to be moved. A workbench torn out. Large shelves unloaded and moved. Wiring changed around. You get the idea. After it is insulated I think a very small heater will keep it warm. Most of our wind comes out of the southwest and the garage is protected by the house on those sides.
RSKY

You might not even need a heater. I work out of a small 20x30x8 high shop. If I drive a thoroughly warmed up vehicle (ie operating temperature motor and warm interior) in I gain heat. At first the garage cools off because of all the cold body tin but over time the temperatures evens out and the garage gets warmer. I often open the hood of a vehicle just to help even out the temperatures quicker.

If I park my Cummins inside for overnight the block is still warm in the morning.
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #51  
I run a mini split HVAC in my shop and I live in Kentucky. Works wonderfully in keeping my shop warm in the winter and cool in the summer. It doesn't smell or make any noise and is very inexpensive to operate. I would recommend you look at a mini split system.

edit: more info: I paid less than a thousand dollars installed. I bought a Pioneer brand off amazon (August 2015). It is a 1.5 ton unit and has been heating my shop even during this cold blast. I am not sure how it does that being that it is a heat pump, but for some reason these mini splits can produce heat without resistive backup heat strips down to ver very cold unlike traditional HVAC heat pumps like I have at my house. The heat it produces and blows out of the vent is actually very warm to the touch. Very nice, constant heat and the beauty of these things is that they are inverters and it can put out 1/2 ton up to 1/5 ton based upon what the demands are....unlike a traditional single stage HVAC that blasts you with basically full on or full off. Do yourself a favor and stop fooling around with this and get your garage comfortable 365 days a year, inexpensively, and efficient....with no obscene smells or noise or unsightly devices in your garage....I have lots of stuff...and this is hands down the best.
 
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/ Shop/Garage Heater
  • Thread Starter
#52  
You've ruled out NG, LPG, oil, & wood. Have you looked into some form of passive solar augmented by a heat pump?

I recently had an addition about the size of your garage put on a house and we went with a heat pump. Very efficient, easy to install.

Thanks for your input but, once again we are looking for economy. We have a Mitsubishi heat pump for our sun room/utility room added rooms. It is quiet, efficient, and effective. It was also massively EXPENSIVE. That knocks it out of running. My daughter and her family recently added one of those that has five room units capability. They have an outlet with thermostat in three bedrooms, the upstairs play room, and a space for a future added on master bedroom. The cost was very high.

Once again, no open flames, no tending every day, no expensive gas lines or tanks to install. Unless somebody can come up with a magic solution it looks like all electric will be the way to go. I will just have to pay the higher utility bills for three months of the year.

RSKY
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater
  • Thread Starter
#53  
I run a mini split HVAC in my shop and I live in Kentucky. Works wonderfully in keeping my shop warm in the winter and cool in the summer. It doesn't smell or make any noise and is very inexpensive to operate. I would recommend you look at a mini split system.

edit: more info: I paid less than a thousand dollars installed. I bought a Pioneer brand off amazon (August 2015). It is a 1.5 ton unit and has been heating my shop even during this cold blast. I am not sure how it does that being that it is a heat pump, but for some reason these mini splits can produce heat without resistive backup heat strips down to ver very cold unlike traditional HVAC heat pumps like I have at my house. The heat it produces and blows out of the vent is actually very warm to the touch. Very nice, constant heat and the beauty of these things is that they are inverters and it can put out 1/2 ton up to 1/5 ton based upon what the demands are....unlike a traditional single stage HVAC that blasts you with basically full on or full off. Do yourself a favor and stop fooling around with this and get your garage comfortable 365 days a year, inexpensively, and efficient....with no obscene smells or noise or unsightly devices in your garage....I have lots of stuff...and this is hands down the best.

Are you in the Jackson Purchase area? I am slightly east of Mayfield.

RSKY
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #54  
Im in the Paradise area, where they had the world's largest shovel.....
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #55  
(1)I run a mini split HVAC in my shop and I live in Kentucky. Works wonderfully in keeping my shop warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

edit: (2) I am not sure how it does that being that it is a heat pump, but for some reason these mini splits can produce heat without resistive backup heat strips down to(3) ver very cold unlike traditional HVAC heat pumps like I have at my house. Very nice, constant heat and the beauty of these things is that they are inverters and it can put out 1/2 ton up to 1/5 ton based upon what the demands are....(4)unlike a traditional single stage HVAC that blasts you with basically full on or full off.

(1) while I agree a minisplit is a good solution for heating AND cooling, there are a couple of drawbacks in installing a minisplit to heat a garage or shop. Namely that the majority of minisplits lack the cfm needed to properly heat a large area and do not create enough airflow. The benefit of a central HVAC is that there is a supply and return which simply is receiving pre-heated air and adds heat as opposed to heating up the air from scratch. This is where their efficiency comes from as opposed to minisplits. In order to make a good and efficient minisplit system where would need to be something else that circulates air better...

(2) they essentially work by being a pump.. for heat... the heat pump is essentially the same as an AC with the flow going the other way. Meaning the outside coil is cooled and the inside one is hot. It not only gets the heat from the surrounding air (despite it being "cold outside, there still is some "heat" yet there is less of it. Essentially there is no such thing as cold. Just a lack of heat). The coil heats up because the fluid loses its compression and due to friction. When compressed the fluid becomes cold, the heat pump just decides where this cold fluid goes. Inside for ac or outside to heat the inside.

(3)most mini splits only work until about -12 or -15 C which is 5f to 10f. There are models that will go down to 0f but most of them lose the majority of their efficiency around the 20f. While they still work, the amount of electricity needed to extract the heat increases and there are chances that the outside coil freezes over, causing the unit to simply shut off.

(4) while most HVACs are single or step stage, there is a point/benefit to it.
That running for half or full blast for x minutes is better than a unit always hunting and sending off 10% then 50% then 20% then 70% then down to 5%, while this promotes constant airflow, it is usually insufficient for the whole house or shop, as it can only measure at the thermostat, meaning one place will be cold and the other hot and where the thermostat is, it will be the set temperature.

The only way to fight this issue is by AIRFLOW which is key in a shop or garage to circulate as much air as possible and slowly heating it up.

Not only is the cost sometimes an issue with the minisplits and installation, it doesn't guarantee frost protection as the unit may freeze over.

A good minisplit will have resistive elements and "auxiliary heat" which are either elements or a function that reverses the unit to thaw the outdoor coil, but that again increases the cost of the unit and complexity.

I think OP is better off with two electric heaters due to their lack of maintenance needed, one to maintain the heat and the other to help with airflow or to help bump the heat up when they are working in the shop. After a year of use, they will be able to judge whether a gas line could be beneficial or not (sometimes it isn't, it depends on the price, consumption, etc).

On a side note, for summer a simple dehumidifier/air exchanger will help keep the shop colder and in the winter easier to heat. If OP or anyone is interested I can explain the design which is pretty much DIY for about 100-200$ depending on the size of the garage. It's pretty much an inline fan with some ducting and a humidistat.
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #56  
(1) while I agree a minisplit is a good solution for heating AND cooling, there are a couple of drawbacks in installing a minisplit to heat a garage or shop. Namely that the majority of minisplits lack the cfm needed to properly heat a large area and do not create enough airflow. The benefit of a central HVAC is that there is a supply and return which simply is receiving pre-heated air and adds heat as opposed to heating up the air from scratch. This is where their efficiency comes from as opposed to minisplits. In order to make a good and efficient minisplit system where would need to be something else that circulates air better...

(2) they essentially work by being a pump.. for heat... the heat pump is essentially the same as an AC with the flow going the other way. Meaning the outside coil is cooled and the inside one is hot. It not only gets the heat from the surrounding air (despite it being "cold outside, there still is some "heat" yet there is less of it. Essentially there is no such thing as cold. Just a lack of heat). The coil heats up because the fluid loses its compression and due to friction. When compressed the fluid becomes cold, the heat pump just decides where this cold fluid goes. Inside for ac or outside to heat the inside.

(3)most mini splits only work until about -12 or -15 C which is 5f to 10f. There are models that will go down to 0f but most of them lose the majority of their efficiency around the 20f. While they still work, the amount of electricity needed to extract the heat increases and there are chances that the outside coil freezes over, causing the unit to simply shut off.

(4) while most HVACs are single or step stage, there is a point/benefit to it.
That running for half or full blast for x minutes is better than a unit always hunting and sending off 10% then 50% then 20% then 70% then down to 5%, while this promotes constant airflow, it is usually insufficient for the whole house or shop, as it can only measure at the thermostat, meaning one place will be cold and the other hot and where the thermostat is, it will be the set temperature.

The only way to fight this issue is by AIRFLOW which is key in a shop or garage to circulate as much air as possible and slowly heating it up.

Not only is the cost sometimes an issue with the minisplits and installation, it doesn't guarantee frost protection as the unit may freeze over.

A good minisplit will have resistive elements and "auxiliary heat" which are either elements or a function that reverses the unit to thaw the outdoor coil, but that again increases the cost of the unit and complexity.

I think OP is better off with two electric heaters due to their lack of maintenance needed, one to maintain the heat and the other to help with airflow or to help bump the heat up when they are working in the shop. After a year of use, they will be able to judge whether a gas line could be beneficial or not (sometimes it isn't, it depends on the price, consumption, etc).

On a side note, for summer a simple dehumidifier/air exchanger will help keep the shop colder and in the winter easier to heat. If OP or anyone is interested I can explain the design which is pretty much DIY for about 100-200$ depending on the size of the garage. It's pretty much an inline fan with some ducting and a humidistat.

Sounds like you know your stuff. Good info. The OP and I live in the same state and therefore the same climate. My little cheap pioneer mini split will melt that Ice I've seen out there on the unit when it defrosts. Not sure what that is doing that, did not realize it was not a feature they would add on all of the units. This thing has been great. 1.5 ton (18,000 BTU) and total costs installed was right at $1,000 or less if memory serves me correct. Granted I had 220 where it was needed already. I believe comment #4 is basically experienced in any system no matter what it is unless you have thermostats in all rooms in the space you are controlling.

Anyway, a mini split for his garage would serve him well I believe based upon the climate we live in. My 1.5 ton Pioneer is perfectly sized for my 750 square foot garage. I am insulated and have an insulated garage door. I have 10 feet ceilings in here. And to be honest I enjoy the air conditioning part of it as much or more than the heating part. I love love love it when I come in from mowing grass and plop down in here with a beverage, turn the tv on, and relax after beautifying my lawn!
 
/ Shop/Garage Heater #57  
(1) while I agree a minisplit is a good solution for heating AND cooling, there are a couple of drawbacks in installing a minisplit to heat a garage or shop. Namely that the majority of minisplits lack the cfm needed to properly heat a large area and do not create enough airflow. The benefit of a central HVAC is that there is a supply and return which simply is receiving pre-heated air and adds heat as opposed to heating up the air from scratch. This is where their efficiency comes from as opposed to minisplits. In order to make a good and efficient minisplit system where would need to be something else that circulates air better...

(2) they essentially work by being a pump.. for heat... the heat pump is essentially the same as an AC with the flow going the other way. Meaning the outside coil is cooled and the inside one is hot. It not only gets the heat from the surrounding air (despite it being "cold outside, there still is some "heat" yet there is less of it. Essentially there is no such thing as cold. Just a lack of heat). The coil heats up because the fluid loses its compression and due to friction. When compressed the fluid becomes cold, the heat pump just decides where this cold fluid goes. Inside for ac or outside to heat the inside.

(3)most mini splits only work until about -12 or -15 C which is 5f to 10f. There are models that will go down to 0f but most of them lose the majority of their efficiency around the 20f. While they still work, the amount of electricity needed to extract the heat increases and there are chances that the outside coil freezes over, causing the unit to simply shut off.

(4) while most HVACs are single or step stage, there is a point/benefit to it.
That running for half or full blast for x minutes is better than a unit always hunting and sending off 10% then 50% then 20% then 70% then down to 5%, while this promotes constant airflow, it is usually insufficient for the whole house or shop, as it can only measure at the thermostat, meaning one place will be cold and the other hot and where the thermostat is, it will be the set temperature.

The only way to fight this issue is by AIRFLOW which is key in a shop or garage to circulate as much air as possible and slowly heating it up.

Not only is the cost sometimes an issue with the minisplits and installation, it doesn't guarantee frost protection as the unit may freeze over.

A good minisplit will have resistive elements and "auxiliary heat" which are either elements or a function that reverses the unit to thaw the outdoor coil, but that again increases the cost of the unit and complexity.

I think OP is better off with two electric heaters due to their lack of maintenance needed, one to maintain the heat and the other to help with airflow or to help bump the heat up when they are working in the shop. After a year of use, they will be able to judge whether a gas line could be beneficial or not (sometimes it isn't, it depends on the price, consumption, etc).

On a side note, for summer a simple dehumidifier/air exchanger will help keep the shop colder and in the winter easier to heat. If OP or anyone is interested I can explain the design which is pretty much DIY for about 100-200$ depending on the size of the garage. It's pretty much an inline fan with some ducting and a humidistat.
I'd enjoy learning about the dehumidifier cooling. Perhaps you could start a thread explaining it? I imagine a lot of us could benefit from that.
 
 
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