New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS?

   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #21  
I know that in Europe there are diesels used there that are not allowed here in the US because of emissions being to high. Heck, here in California we did not get many of the vehicles that were allowed in other states. We never were allowed to purchase 1/2 GMC's with diesels (that in retrospect was a blessing). Yep, Richard is right on about the diesels here today. Trucks are burning very clean. It amazes me how in a few short years they went from pretty bad to pretty incredible both in power and emissions
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #22  
Hi,

I thought Euro diesel starandards were a high as California?

Like I said earlier, We have had LSD up here for 10 years. It is moreso a mindset adjustment IMO!! Diesel fuel conditioner works great!!

Hey, I know Dodge did not sell the HIGH OUTPUT Cummins 24V in California because of emmisions............Is the NEW 600 available out there??

Thanks

Will
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #23  
Euro emissions focus on CO and CO2 emissions while NOx is a bit slacker. Cali is tight on NOx due to their smog problems. NOx is the hardest to reduce on a diesel.

Another difference is I believe at least some euro areas use total emissions per mile or something like that as opposed to the % rules the US uses.
Ken
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #24  
Diesel generators, trains, buses (almost all of those are going natural gas), tractors, you name it, they are all being directed in one way or the other to cleaner emissions CO and CO2 included or they are not allowed to be used as is the case with many diesel generators. I don't know if the Dodge HO is available in Cafiornia. In the past years the higher output Cummins was not. I suppose it makes sense in a state this size that has a greater population then the whole of Canada.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #25  
Not meaning to get to far off topic, but I noticed in a Harbor Freight catalog that they had chainsaws for sale EXCEPT in california. Are they considered "assault weapons" there? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Or is it, as it just occured to me, an exhaust emissions issue?
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #26  
Hi,

It makes sense. I always chuckle on that one!!! California will fint into Ontario how many times, and Californias population is more than our entire country!!!! LOL

Ok, as for smal engines.............. aren't 2 strokes on the way out due to emissions? What is the present state of 2 strokes in California ? ( Our emmisions system is modelled after California's)

Thanks,

Will
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #27  
Sulfur in diesel is NOT a lubricant. Old wives tale.

This low sulfur diesel will be an improvement.

Ralph
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #28  
RalphVA: Please be careful when asserting your opinions as if they were fact. You should have qualified your statement with a qualifier such as "in my opinion" before your statement that sulfur does not add to the lubricating factors of diesel fuel. The facts that can be easily researched and proven through current testing show that you are wrong.

According to a little research on the matter to disprove your assertion, I found that in October 1993, EPA limited sulfur in diesel fuel for “on-road” vehicles to a maximum of 0.05% or 500 parts per million (PPM). This created many fuel related problems that resulted from the poor lubricating quality of the low sulfur diesel fuel. Since the maximum limit for sulfur in diesel fuel prior to October 1993 had been 0.50% or 5000 PPM, the refinery processing not only lowered the sulfur content but also removed trace amounts of certain polar impurities. Both organo-sulfur compounds and these polar impurities were the ingredients that gave diesel fuel its needed natural lubricating qualities.

From this new low sulfur limit for all “on-road” vehicles, several laboratory testing procedures were developed in the mid 1990’s that measured the lubricity of diesel fuel. Chevron’s Technical Review of Diesel Fuels publication defines lubricity as “the ability to reduce friction between solid surfaces in relative motion, the lubrication mechanism being a combination of hydrodynamic lubrication and boundary lubrication.” More simply stated, lubricity is that quality that prevents wear when two moving metal parts come in contact with each other. Three methods were developed which are now available for measuring fuel lubricity; namely, the Scuffing Load Ball on Cylinder Lubricity Evaluator (SLBOCLE), the High Frequency Reciprocating Wear Rig (HFRR), and the Ball on Three Seats Method (BOTS).

EPA proposed new regulations in May of 2000 that will further reduce sulfur for “on-road” diesel fuel to a maximum of 0.0015% or 15 PPM. The proposed regulation is to go into effect June 1, 2006. This reduction in sulfur is fully supported by engine manufactures who contend their new exhaust catalyst systems needed to meet the enacted emission standards will not work if sulfur exceed 15 PPM. However, the proposed legislation is not supported by the refining industries and oil companies who are recommending the limit be set at 0.0050% or 50 PPM. They explain that attempting to meet the anticipated demand for diesel fuel having sulfur at 15 PPM or less will be extremely difficult and very costly for consumers.

We first have to understand why lubricity is important for diesel fuel. There are several types of diesel fuel injection systems being used by engine manufactures which depend on fuel lubricity in varying degrees. Of all systems being used, the rotary distributor injection pump is the one most dependent on lubricity because the fuel provides 100% lubrication to the internal parts of the injection pump. As the rotary distributor injection pump is highly susceptible to boundary lubrication wear (i.e., when heavy metal-to-metal contact occurs with the fuel providing little or no lubrication), this potential wear becomes more severe with increasing ambient temperature and increasing loading on the engine. Any significant wear will lead to under run and/or stalling annoyances, and eventually premature pump failure. The remaining other types of fuel injection systems are not as highly dependent on the fuel for lubrication and therefore, are not as sensitive to low lubricity diesel fuel, sometimes referred to as “dry diesel fuel.”

These rotary distributor injection pumps, typically found on small to medium size engines, are widely used, and are manufactured by Stanadyne Automotive Corporation,, DENSO Corporation, Robert Bosch GmbH, and Delphi Diesel Systems. These types of fuel injection pumps are typically found in most US and foreign manufactured light duty vehicles and a wide variety of equipment systems.

Since the introduction of "low sulfur" diesel fuel in 1993, there has been a considerable amount of effort by the automotive industry, users, and the petroleum industry to incorporate a “lubricity requirement” in commercial diesel fuel; namely, ASTM D975. Unfortunately, this has not yet happened due to a combination of politics and other factors. However, there had been in Europe a greater awareness and acceptance for specifying a lubricity requirement. The European Union ‘s Diesel Fuel Standard EN590 now requires all low sulfur diesel fuel sold in Europe to meet a lubricity standard that uses the HFRR procedure.

In the United States, the Engine Manufacturers Association (EMA) published their “Recommended Guideline on Premium Diesel Fuel” in 1997. This document, identified as EMA FQP-1A, did include a lubricity requirement for both grades of low sulfur diesel fuel. Additionally, the World-Wide Fuel Charter published by the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers (AAM) in January 2000 also specified a lubricity requirement for all four of their diesel fuel categories. More recently, the Diesel Fuel Injection Equipment Manufacturers (FIE) issued a “Common Position Statement on Fuel for Diesel Engines.” in June 2000. Contained within this statement was a strong recommendation for including the same lubricity requirement as in the EN590 standard. So there has been some progress.

As low sulfur diesel fuel continues to be sold in the United States without any requirement for lubricity, there continues to exist the potential for wear problems especially in engines with the rotary distributor fuel injection pumps. The consumer is led to believe that all is well as fuel producers would not market a “low lubricity or lubricity deficient” fuel that could promote wear. That however may or may not be the case since there is “no measuring stick” presently being used. Without the enforcement of a lubricity standard, neither consumers nor fuel distributors can be certain as to whether the fuel has adequate lubricity.

As soon as the industry standard for diesel fuel D975 incorporates a lubricity standard, the potential for wear problems will become a distant memory. This standard will most certainly be needed prior to the next planned reduction of sulfur in 2006. Time will tell. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #29  
My two Bosch VE37 rotary distributor pumps have over 240,000 miles between them without a single solitary problem using Amoco Premier or BP Supreme #2 exclusively for the last seven years.

The new ULSD limit <15ppm is most welcome and will add to the longetivity of our engines.

Sulfur is not needed for lubricity.

Get rid of sulfur and aromatics now!
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #30  
SkyPup, I'm a bit confused by your statement, as it contradicts itself. You state that you have nearly 1/4 million miles on engines running diesel fuel I assume that you purchased in the U.S., and have had no problems. That would be very believable as many have over 1 million miles on them without problems. However, unless you have been buying your diesel from outside the U.S. at refineries who already reduce the sulphur content below the U.S. standards, you have been using diesel which contains enough sulfer, without other added lubricants needed, to lubricate your pumps.

I'm not an advocate for sulphur, I personally don't care for the smell, but the fact that can easily be researched is that it does provide natural lubricating properties to diesel fuel. Please, don't believe me, research it yourself. By reducing the lubrication, how do you figure that your engines "will last longer"? Perhaps by adding a superior alternative lubricant, but not by simply removing sulphur, a natural source of diesel lubricant.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #31  
Yup, our Bosch VE37s have been going strong on the Low Sulfur <500ppm for quite sometime now. They will go even longer on the ULSD <15ppm as well.

Sulfur is not a lubricant, it is a bad contaminant. The severe hydrotreatment utilized in its removal also removes many of the other water soluable polar compounds that do provide lubricity. In order to correct for the lubricity compounds removed, the ULSD producers add back enough lubricity back to the refined fuel so that the lubricity remains higher than 3100 grams on the SLBOCLE (Scuffing Load Ball on Cylinder Lubricity Evaluator) test.

BTW, those in California and Texas have been using ULSD with no problems.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #32  
What about the sulfur content of some ep gear lubes.. like gl-5 oils.. versus gl-1's that don't have sulfur?

Soundguy
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #33  
That would depend upon the metallic composition of all the parts of tranny.

As you know, taking 95% of the sulfur out of diesel fuel also takes 95% of the sulfuric acid out of the diesel engine crankcase with less depletion of TBN as well removing 95% of the toxic sulfur from the exhaust stream into the atomsphere.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #34  
A precursory search of the internet yeilds dozens of articles on the low sulfur / poor lubricity issue, in just the first 3 pages I looked at. Everything from a military spec sheet.. to a couple oil and fuel companies websites.. to a few bio diesel websites. That's quite a bit of info to disagree with.

If this were the tetra ethyl lead issue / valve lubrication /anti-knock-pre detonation / wivestail issue.. it would be a bit easier to work out... but at least for a casual observer.. it DOES indeed look like sulfur content plays a role in diesel fuel lubricity. There is even an epa article on the subject concerning sulfer oxides and the fuel issue..

Soundguy
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #35  
Does that mean that diesel engines in California and Texas are failing left and right from their use of ULSD and that the rest of the USA and Canada will meet the same fate in 2006?

I think not.

BTW, Europe is already using ULSD with less aromatics and much higher cetane and there are ALOT more diesels over there than there are here.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #36  
Here's another $0.02 worth of info.

My mom just had the injection pump replaced in her GMC diesel pickup, to the tune of $2500. It is a Stanadyne pump, replaced by an authorized Stanadyne dealer/service center where I live. The pump was not worn out but had some electrical/servo control problems (it is a totally "drive-by-wire" electronically controlled unit). Anyway, on the repair order she got back there was a BIG BOLD note stating that modern low sulphur diesel fuels do not provide enough lubricity for the pump and that a good fuel additive should always be used.

I have also heard that the sulphur itself is not the lubricant but that it either contributes chemically to other compounds to increase lubricity or that it's removal involves processes that break down compounds that do provide the lubricating properties. I'm not sure which, if either of those, is true.

Personally I'm always going to use a good additive in my tractor. If it does nothing so be it, but if it helps the pump last longer then it is well worth the small cost.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #37  
Hmm, sounds like quite an effective marketing and sales plug for Stanadyne's own diesel fuel treatment products.....they did produce the FIE for the infamous GM diesels too....

There are not very many rotary distributor FIE pumps in North America to begin with, primarily VE30, VE34, VE 37, VE44 and the older Stanadyne units are about it for agricultural, marine, industrial, and automotive applications (the vast majority of these FIE units are all in Europe where they are running just fine on ULSD). The distributor pumps are the ones most sensitive to low lubricity.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #38  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Most of the new diesels emit less emissions that a compact car. That was the whole reason for Ford going to the 6.0 litre over the 7.3 litre. It was all about emissions. Most of the pickups and trucks are already at and beyond govt. guidelines. )</font>

Yes, for example the 6.0L meets current gov't guidelines, but in it's current state (2003 & 2004 motors), does not meet the 2007 guidelines, as I understand it. More work, and cost is being put forth to try to meet those stricter 2007 guidelines, which they were not able to meet in time for production in 2003. I don't know if the new 2005 engines are meeting those stricter guidelines yet.

Earlier this year, the Colorado Powerstroke Club sponsored an informational event at a local diesel repair/research facility. They told us about the 2007 requirements to lower sulphur content, which would also significantly lower the lubricity properties, and that unless the refiners would be required to add back in a lubricity agent that meets some sort of set forth standard, we were ALL going to need to add something to our fuel tank at every fillup. They were very concerned about diesel motor longevity in this country if the refiners were not required to add a lubricity agent back in, as many folks will never bother to add a bottle at every fillup.

I've been hearing more talk of all diesel fuels in 2007 being required to be a 2% biodiesel blend, to get the lubricity up to par. Whether that is something that will happen or not, I have no idea, but I sure would sleep better at night knowing that every station I fill up at was providing a 2% minimum biodiesel blend. However, out here, a local ASTM certified biodiesel producer may have their B20 blend priced the same as regular diesel by that time, so some of us may have another option - right now, their B20 averages 20 cents/gallon more than regular diesel.
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #39  
Hi,

We have been running LSD and now Ulsd up here for 10 years!!

Take care

Will
 
   / New Low Sulfer Diesel in 2006 -PROBLEMS? #40  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Does that mean that diesel engines in California and Texas are failing left and right from their )</font>

I didn't say that. Perhaps other lubricants are in use. ( I don't know ) personally.. I use power service products, etc.

It just seems that there are a couple people here that claim there are no problems.. then offer no form of proof to back that up whatsoever. then there are the rest of us here that are offering proof.. or at least doing precursory research either via web documents from credible goverment offices or private companies.. or even from the previous' message deisel pump rebuilder.. etc.

Seems like it is in black and white. Before you get bent out of shape at this message.. how about posting some equally credible date to go along with your argument.. and let the data talk... that's what this needs to be about.. data .. not opinion. So far there is credible data on the 'table' that suggests that lower sulfur fuel has less lubricity. what that entails in not certain.. but does lead many to believe that without added lubricants.. that the new fuel standards may cause problems. I for one, think the fuel industry is trying to play 'chicken' with the standards.. and hold out on extra lubricants due to the cost.. but in the end will have to fall in line and play ball, and modify the addative package to make up for the lost lubricity. Either that or products like power service are gonna be real popular, and probably sold at kiosk displays right by the pump at big diesel stations...

Soundguy
 

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