Buying Advice Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors?

[rScotty]

Do you not think that negative health consequences have been reduced over the last 60 years? How much will be enough? And what do they REALLY want?

Some health problems have been reduced - at great effort. But new ones keep being invented. What WE - and I think that should be all of us - really want is for industry and government to act responsibility towards others. Stop with the self-serving behavior.

I simply expect the manufacturing companies to pick up after themselves.
To be good citizens in an ever smaller world. I taught the same thing to my own children. Sometimes it took some persuasion.

I'm not saying it will be easy. We are dealing with lots of uncaring businesses and governments acting like spoiled children. But we can work on it & hope.
And now I know what my parents went through.

Maybe big business will even fiigure out that the easiest way to clean up their mess is not to make one in the first place.

rScotty

 

[Paystar]

Same here, i even bought 4 more pre 95 tractors to stay ahead of that ridiculous emmision game. 3 belarus and 1 kubota. So my Son never has to buy new tractors in their life either.

Right now, the ONLY brand new diesel's I buy are 26 h.p. and under like my compact tractor and RTV. But I can guarantee you if they mandate DPF mufflers or ECM's and electronics on these small machines, I will never buy one of those new again either.
I've played the DPF game for a number of years and I can guarantee you there will NEVER be another one in my yard. Not ever.

 

[Elviscaretaker]

Just a thought but why is it always regulating the equipment used to create our food and not the stuff used for entertainment? Hmm, seems odd doesn't it. So excuse me but this is all BS and when private planes and jetting off for a holiday are banned, the states actually fight forest fires instead of waiting to see if they burn themselves out, countries no longer send rockets into space, the POS's that want these rules live by them. I will not comply, and I have no intention of replacing any equipment. Lets not forget to tell the volcanos to stop erupting too. It's a wonder we managed not to kill ourselves off during the industrial revolution or by the crap added to our food..... Ever think what we put into our bodies has caused any of these "health" problems?

 

[big bubba]

"You can always tell when a politician is lying--their lips are moving." blitzen
absolutely agree, lies certainly abound today more than ever
(if one can separate fact from friction.) regards

 

[kminnick]

I’m hearing there are plans to dismantle many hydroelectric dams. I’ve never seen/heard of more stupidity in my entire life.
It’s like we are hell-bent on devolving into an elite/servant society.

Yes indeed! It's coming to a head in Washington state on the Snake river. It's all to save the salmon (in theory). But, they did studies and for 3 or 4 years, they bypassed many of the hydroturbines and ran the water through the bypass & fish ladders, only to find no change in salmon numbers. So, the assumption is the data is skewed because the dam is there and must be removed...

 

[kminnick]

Like the gov't does with gas and diesel?

I remember when I was a kid, gas was $0.35/gallon and diesel was $0.18. Why does diesel now cost 50% more than premium gas? This way, the whole country can subsidize the cost of fuel with all the shipping and air travel.

 

[kminnick]

I design systems for a living. Did it myself. $18,000 in materials. $3000 cash for helpers to install. $12,000 state rebate and 30% federal tax credit

Yes, but rebates and tax credits means everyone else gets to pay for these systems. Not sure I feel good about my neighbors helping to pay for my solar system.

 

[RB5]

Past time to quit burning wood as it contributes to particulate emissions, 1000 times more than any tractor exhaust ever will...

Your comment smacks of ignorance and not much more.

Quit burning wood? What about my bbq pit? oh yea just use liquid smoke... nope nope nope and as long as the power has a chance of failing here in Texas during the winter I will have wood ready to burn. Some of us can't quite afford a whole house backup generator, oh wait, that runs on fossil fuel.

 

[RB5]

Past time to quit burning wood as it contributes to particulate emissions, 1000 times more than any tractor exhaust ever will...

Your comment smacks of ignorance and not much more.

Did anyone else detect a bit of sarcasm inthe post you replied to? just sayin

 

[RB5]

As in "Tier IV Interim" in 2007 followed years later by "Tier IV Final". Nothing was said or implied about how many Tiers it will take.
My problem with all this is not the EPA, but that the EPA is going after relatively minor contributors. I'd like to see them go after at least one of the major offenders. Big Oil or Big Anything instead of always chasing the little people.

It doesn' matter who they go after. Everything will cost the people that work hard and pay for stuff more. There are way too many people to compleltely clean up everything. Someone mentioned the air is cleaner than 50 years ago. That might be true in some places. It's not true here where the popluation has grown way faster than most places in the US over the last 50 years.

 

[RB5]

as uncomfortable as it was, I adored driving my Super A.
until the wind blew the exhaust back in my face.
Had a marvelous Massey made in India, a Perkins clone, tier III, all manual, the kind of tractor
that lasts a hundred years all over the world. It didn't smoke at all. But I could definitely smell it.
Kubota L5740 was tier 4 early, didn't smoke and could only smell if started in the barn.
Massey 4707 was tier 4 final. It didn't smoke. It didn't smell. And no def at 70hp.

so far....emissions control hasn't been a problem for me. It all worked.
and I'm well old enough to know the early 70's when half our cars ran terribly due to early emission controls.
But they worked that out, you don't hear problems now I believe. And we have more horsepower now than ever.
probably too much in some cases.

they may have educated guesses as to health improvements by reducing the size of airborne pollutants, but
sure doesn't seem like they have thought out the financial aspects well.
How about a financial impact study, apply some standards used in approved business practices, and determine
positives and negatives. Because there will be negatives.
And there certainly will be an increased cost, usually always is, and if not dumped back on taxpayers, who is going
to pay for it? How about safety? if Tier 5 requires higher heat regen, just how much of a furnace do you want on your tractor?
You can't throw a new spec up on the wall and hope it sticks. They have already done too much of that with cars.
Here's our made up standard, you figure it out and build it or we'll fine the heck out of you.

of course with VW and Stellatlantis cheating on emissions on a worldwide stage, perhaps the governments can't trust the market
to self police.

seems hard to believe we need more than tier 4 final.
I think even new train engines are tier 4 something.
pretty sure we aren't going backwards on emissions though.
if the EU is at 5 ppm and we are at 12, perhaps peer pressure is driving this.

Jeff, you started this, what do you think?

shouldn't engine emissions standard be worldwide?
i think engine makers still building tier III for third world.
We shouldn't have to go to tier 5 to compensate.

LOL World wide set by who? A UN treaty? You see how well that works out for the US most of the time.

 

[RB5]

Many states adopt California rules and regs.

California first with emission controls, unleaded gas, low sulphur diesel, sanctuary cities, same *** marriage... and I can go on and on.

yeah and those stupid fuel cans that cause me to spill more fuel than I ever did before.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

People inhale smoke into their lungs, smoke weed, smoke vape pens, etc. We all foot the insurance bill for their addictions. The smokers all claim “it’s my right to smoke!!!! The government is addicted to the tax revenues, so that will never go away. That’s pathetic.

As far as the new regulations are concerned, the cost for “perfection” is too great to society.

Food will only increase in price with more pollution regulations. As it does, more people will starve to death.
The cost of energy is also increasing due to more stringent pollution standards, so more people will freeze to death.

Perfection actually causes death.

I see where you are going with this, but be very careful. How easy would it be to point the insurance bill finger at other groups? People who eat too much
People who drink too much
People who don't exercise enough
The list goes on.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

Don't forget MTBE being added to the fuel in California to cut down on smog. When it first came out, it caused the price of gasoline to jump because they had to reformulate how hey made gasoline.

Then it was discovered that MTBE worked its way into the water table and contaminated all the underground water so it wasn't safe to drink well water anymore.

Since it was too expensive to "NOT" put the MTBE into gasoline, they just kept on destroying the water table.

I haven't kept up on this since leaving CA in 2003. Do they still add MTBE to the gasoline there?

I thought MBTE was banned in mid 2000's?

 

[RB5]

I think at some point new regs gets a little ridiculous. There have been many changes that are good. Removing lead from gas was one. Auto emissions controls were good. With the emisisons testing and newer engine technology I rarely see a car driving down the road burning oil from the rings being bad. I also don't miss the rolling coal diesel trucks I used to see frequently, although I still see one every once in a while. I did decide to stay away from diesel when I bought a truck last time partially due to needing DEF. I would have had to really be able to justify the added expense to run a diesel with the new emissions laws. I did not need that much of a truck 99 percent of the time. My tractor has the regen feature. The only part about it I had to get used to was running in a lower gear at 1500 RPMs. No DEF required. It is a pain if I have to leave it running to regen the filter. Fortunatley it doesn't happen often, and since I am used to running higher RPMs now it is rare. One problem I have with more and more regulations is that all of them come at added cost. Everything we do gets more and more expensive. There are older people with equipment that doesn't conform to the new regulations. If they are not grandfathered in some of them can't afford to buy new equipment. Is that fair to those that bought a tractor and thought they would never have to replace it? I am almost 60 and keep watching the push for electric everything. My tractor is paid for. No way could I afford a new one if I were forced to. The taxpayers or the consumers will pay for whatever they decide we are required to do. That means everything costs more. Some farmers won't be able to afford it. Same thing with health care when they said the cost will not go up. Now I pay less if I say I don't have insurance than I do with insurance. To get the same coverage I had before the ACA costs me several thousand dollars a month. Not happening. Too many times the consequences of new laws are not thought out or are ignored completely. It is always going to be difficult on someone when the rules keep changing. Yeah I know I strayed off topic with health care. It was just an example of consequences of new regulations.

 

[big bubba]

It doesn' matter who they go after. Everything will cost the people that work hard and pay for stuff more. There are way too many people to compleltely clean up everything. Someone mentioned the air is cleaner than 50 years ago. That might be true in some places. It's not true here where the popluation has grown way faster than most places in the US over the last 50 years.

agree. in terms of regs, well, i really don't know the answer. guess one could go for a jog in Mumbai to find out. complex problem in a troubled world

 

[Elviscaretaker]

Yes indeed! It's coming to a head in Washington state on the Snake river. It's all to save the salmon (in theory). But, they did studies and for 3 or 4 years, they bypassed many of the hydroturbines and ran the water through the bypass & fish ladders, only to find no change in salmon numbers. So, the assumption is the data is skewed because the dam is there and must be removed...

Not only have they done studies but they had the example on the coast where they took one out and 8 years later... no change. Then the DA's get a bunch of activists together that come to the conclusion (after years of tax payers wasted $) that they need to remove 4 more. No thoughts of where their food comes from or power since you can just go to the grocery store to get it, right? Then the power company the same. Tidal has failed it just goes on. Why I escaped the communism there. For those that don't think it's that bad there, leave for a month and then go back....

 

[Paystar]

Quit burning wood? What about my bbq pit? oh yea just use liquid smoke... nope nope nope and as long as the power has a chance of failing here in Texas during the winter I will have wood ready to burn. Some of us can't quite afford a whole house backup generator, oh wait, that runs on fossil fuel.

There's something else they are never taking from me alive.....my wood stove and my old two stroke chainsaws.

 

[Wobblin-Goblin]

Right now, the ONLY brand new diesel's I buy are 26 h.p. and under like my compact tractor and RTV. But I can guarantee you if they mandate DPF mufflers or ECM's and electronics on these small machines, I will never buy one of those new again either.
I've played the DPF game for a number of years and I can guarantee you there will NEVER be another one in my yard. Not ever.

That's the point. They don't want you to own one, period.

"You'll own nothing and be happy."

 

[m5040]

Back when they first computerized truck engines, they found that the older mechanical diesels produce soot of a larger size that allowed a person's lungs to self-clean, where the new electronic diesels produced soot in a Nano size that was too small for human lungs to cleanout. The larger size soot also settled out faster in the atmosphere. Did we move in the right direction??