Buying Advice Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors?

   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #281  
Back when they first computerized truck engines, they found that the older mechanical diesels produce soot of a larger size that allowed a person's lungs to self-clean, where the new electronic diesels produced soot in a Nano size that was too small for human lungs to cleanout. The larger size soot also settled out faster in the atmosphere. Did we move in the right direction??
So take your choice, hack up the emphysema loogies and lung chunks or have the invisible damage going on until your lungs just stop.

Gee, some choice.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #282  
Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors?

DPF exemption for <25-horsepower diesel engine tractors to expire?


EPA announces new air quality standards for particulate matter, citing health risks.​


The Environmental Protection Agency announced a new rule on Wednesday to significantly reduce the level of air pollution known as particulate matter (PM) by updating the national air-quality standards, citing negative health impacts of PM exposure.

While the rule is being praised by environmental and health groups, some industry groups have signaled that it could pose a political challenge for President Joe ***** this year as they claim it will hamper American manufacturing and eliminate jobs.

“Today's action is a critical step forward that will better protect workers, families and communities from the dangerous and costly impacts of fine particle pollution,” EPA Administrator Michael Regan told reporters.

“The science is clear, soot pollution is one of the most dangerous forms of air pollution and it's linked to a range of serious and potentially deadly illnesses, including asthma and heart attacks.”

Particulate matter is made up of microscopic solid particles such as dirt, soot or smoke and liquid droplets in the air that are small enough to be inhaled. Those small particles can get into the lungs or bloodstream and contribute to health problems like asthma, respiratory symptoms, heart attacks, or premature death in people with heart or lung problems, according to the EPA.


This type of pollution comes from a variety of sources including power plants, cars, and construction sites. Wildfire smoke is also a significant source of particulate matter pollution.
“And often that is a product of triggering heart attack, cardiopulmonary events or triggering asthma attacks that are fatal,” Simms said.

Regan said the updated standard will prevent up to 4,500 premature deaths and 290,000 lost workdays in the year 2032. On that same timeline, ***** administration officials also say the new standard will yield up to $46 billion in net health benefits.

“The impact of this pollution oftentimes disproportionately affects our most vulnerable communities, including low-income communities, communities of color, children, older adults and those who struggle with heart or lung conditions,” Regan said.

“There are both things that you can calculate numerically about what are the impacts [of PM pollution] and how many deaths and how many hospitalizations, but there also are really important kinds of impacts that are hard to quantify," he added.

The previous annual standard for particulate matter was 12 micrograms per cubic meter of air. Under this new rule, the EPA is lowering the annual standard to 9 micrograms per cubic meter.

The updated rules do not revise the 24-hour standard which is meant to account for short-term spikes in pollution. That will remain at 35 micrograms per cubic meter.
President and CEO of the American Lung Association Harold Wimmer called the update “a step forward for public health,” but noted that the standards fall short of what his organization and others called for.


“While the stronger annual particle pollution standard will mean fewer asthma attacks, heart attacks, strokes and deaths, it is disappointing that EPA did not follow the strong science-based recommendations of the Clean Air Scientific Advisory Committee and the health community to also revise the 24-hour standard to more fully protect public health,” Wimmer added.
Industry groups like the American Forest & Paper Association, American Wood Council and the group’s member company CEOs sent a letter to the White House in October expressing their opposition to the now finalized rule, saying the move, “threatens U.S. competitiveness and modernization projects in the U.S. paper and wood products industry and in other manufacturing sectors across our country.”

“This would severely undermine President *****’s promise to grow and reshore U.S. manufacturing jobs, and ultimately make American manufacturing less competitive,” the letter said. “It also would harm an industry that has been recognized as an important contributor to achieving the Administration’s carbon reduction goals, including in future procurement for federal buildings.”

Simms, who has worked in this space for 25 years, told ABC News these industry outcries aren’t new.

“I've been doing this work for 25 years in a variety of different capacities,” Simms said. “And I can say that every time that an agency like EPA has taken steps to protect people and to reduce pollution, I see this same playbook start to get utilized, which is ‘the sky is falling.’ ‘If we protect people this way, we're going to destroy business and we're going to undermine the economy.’ And there's really good data to show that that's just not true.”
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #283  
Just another example of the woke, un-elected bureaucrats making laws that are putting us back into the stone-age at the same time, India, China and others build coal burning generation plants and laugh at us fools. :ROFLMAO:
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #284  
I can't seem to find any cross reference news articles to confirm this posting from Jeff. He didn't cite his information with anything or give us a link. Is anything really changing any time soon for our tractors? I doubt it. EPA "announcements" do not immediately translate into machinery changes.

It's so easy to trigger a lot of you guys into posting rants with this kind of stuff. ;)

Obviously we should all want less particulate emissions from our internal combustion engines. PM2.5 is indeed nasty stuff that no one should be breathing any of. With that said, we should always do a proper cost/benefit analysis. If the machinery becomes prohibitively expensive to buy, service and maintain, we are essentially imposing a regressive tax, limiting freedom and hurting productivity. If the new technology requirements lower the overall efficiency of the internal combustion engine (See every diesel with a DPF for an example), then you have to consider what other pollutants you are actually INCREASING when attempting to curtail PM output.

I'm glad my tractor has a DPF. It starts up clean inside my finished garage, and I don't have to breathe nearly as many particulates when operating it. An active, 15-minute DPF regen every 50 hours is no problem at all for how I use my machine. If your tractor regens way more often, ask your manufacturer why not; the technology is sound, effective and reliable.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #285  
I can't seem to find any cross reference news articles to confirm this posting from Jeff. He didn't cite his information with anything or give us a link. Is anything really changing any time soon for our tractors? I doubt it. EPA "announcements" do not immediately translate into machinery changes.

It's so easy to trigger a lot of you guys into posting rants with this kind of stuff. ;)

Obviously we should all want less particulate emissions from our internal combustion engines. PM2.5 is indeed nasty stuff that no one should be breathing any of. With that said, we should always do a proper cost/benefit analysis. If the machinery becomes prohibitively expensive to buy, service and maintain, we are essentially imposing a regressive tax, limiting freedom and hurting productivity. If the new technology requirements lower the overall efficiency of the internal combustion engine (See every diesel with a DPF for an example), then you have to consider what other pollutants you are actually INCREASING when attempting to curtail PM output.

I'm glad my tractor has a DPF. It starts up clean inside my finished garage, and I don't have to breathe nearly as many particulates when operating it. An active, 15-minute DPF regen every 50 hours is no problem at all for how I use my machine. If your tractor regens way more often, ask your manufacturer why not; the technology is sound, effective and reliable.
Good post. But my problem isn't with the DPF reliability; I assume they will get that right eventually and all it will do is raise the price of the tractor.

I do have a problem believing that using regeneration to turn large particles into make smaller ones is a health advantage.
But that's another story.

The problem I have is with the DPF equipped tractors that are required to run at much higher RPMs than the job requires. Diesels were originally low RPM fuel efficient engines. Running them at high RPMs burns fuel simply to make the exhaust hotter. That makes more pollution, not less.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #286  
So take your choice, hack up the emphysema loogies and lung chunks or have the invisible damage going on until your lungs just stop.

Gee, some choice.
I've said it before...as a child I used to cut and install real asbestos in wood stoves at my fathers manufacturing shop, and I've ingested more diesel than you can imagine over the last 37 years, including being showered by diesel fuel in the wind while spraying the dump box when hauling asphalt.....and I'm still here. Did I mention I don't sleep or eat healthy either?

The way I look at it is, it's only shortening the worst days of my life......the last ones, LOL
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #288  

“Great concern to…. Already overburdened and vulnerable communities , including many communities of color , and low income communities “

“Many communities with environmental justice concerns “

“Disparities across various demographic groups “

(This one repeated 3 times)
“Communities of color, and low socioeconomic status populations are at a particular risk of PM”

1709212502031.jpeg
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #289  
I do have a problem believing that using regeneration to turn large particles into make smaller ones is a health advantage.
But that's another story.

The problem I have is with the DPF equipped tractors that are required to run at much higher RPMs than the job requires.
Fair point. I suppose I'll just be pedantic and say that the purpose is not technically to make the particles smaller, it's to eliminate them completely, IE convert to gaseous form.

I'm also not really feeling your final point, to be honest. I run my Kioti at ~1500-1800 rpm usually. Is that much higher than an old tractor? Seems about the same to me.

Modern pickup diesels definitely rev out to some historically high rpms, but (IMO) thats for a broad high-power delivery, not just because of the DPF. They still have a huge low end torque plateau and are happy to chug along at low rpms while cruising also.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #290  
I'm in the market for a 1970s International Harvester. Something that just cranks and runs and has no computer... Ours were always pretty abused and just ran
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #291  
Fair point. I suppose I'll just be pedantic and say that the purpose is not technically to make the particles smaller, it's to eliminate them completely, IE convert to gaseous form.

I'm also not really feeling your final point, to be honest. I run my Kioti at ~1500-1800 rpm usually. Is that much higher than an old tractor? Seems about the same to me.

Modern pickup diesels definitely rev out to some historically high rpms, but (IMO) thats for a broad high-power delivery, not just because of the DPF. They still have a huge low end torque plateau and are happy to chug along at low rpms while cruising also.
Yes, that is being pedantic. Solids, liquids, and gases all contain particles. By saying "convert to gaseous form" you are simply repeating my concern using different words. The concern is that the smaller particles are more biologically active than larger ones.

On the final point about operating RPM, I run my older diesels at 1200 to 1500 RPM when doing backhoe work and up to 1800 for loader and up to 2200 when traveling, But when there is no load demand, they automatically returns to idle. So the RPM often drops to about 800 to 900 when it is not doing work at all....even if I'm just backing away with a load or stopping to shift ranges or gears.

My friends Kioti is Tier IV, and it runs at about 1800 RPM at all times. Even when he steps off to load brush in the bucket. He says it is supposed to be run at that speed - something about idleing at low RPMs causing increased regens. I've heard others here on TBN agree. You may know more about that than I do. I know I rarely see Tier IV tractors idleing like the older ones do.

rScotty
 
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   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #292  
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #293  
My friends Kioti is Tier IV, and it runs at about 1800 RPM at all times. Even when he steps off to load brush in the bucket. He says it is supposed to be run at that speed - something about idleing at low RPMs causing increased regens. I've heard others here on TBN agree. You may know more about that than I do. I know I rarely see Tier IV tractors idleing like the older ones do.

rScotty

Owner's manual for my 2016 Kubota M7060 specifically warns about allowing the tractor to idle too much. So with it I'm the same way as your friend...I keep the engine at working speed most of the time. Rarely let it idle. It must work because I've not had any of the emissions problems others have talked about.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #294  
Yes, that is being pedantic. Solids, liquids, and gases all contain particles. By saying "convert to gaseous form" you are simply repeating my concern using different words. The concern is that the smaller particles are more biologically active than larger ones.

On the final point about operating RPM, I run my older diesels at 1200 to 1500 RPM when doing backhoe work and up to 1800 for loader and up to 2200 when traveling, But when there is no load demand, they automatically returns to idle. So the RPM often drops to about 800 to 900 when it is not doing work at all....even if I'm just backing away with a load or stopping to shift ranges or gears.

My friends Kioti is Tier IV, and it runs at about 1800 RPM at all times. Even when he steps off to load brush in the bucket. He says it is supposed to be run at that speed - something about idleing at low RPMs causing increased regens. I've heard others here on TBN agree. You may know more about that than I do. I know I rarely see Tier IV tractors idleing like the older ones do.

rScotty
Yeah. But the point of the dpf is to accumulate particulates, then to fully combust them during regeneration. So convert solid particulates (like PM2.5 partially burned hydrocarbons, nasty stuff) into CO2, which is inert and harmless to you. Not 100% effectively, of course.

My Kioti, like many, has "linked-pedal" mode which allows you to control engine rpm through how far you press the hydro pedals - makes it drive more like an automatic trans car. It's enjoyable and smooth. But generally results in a lot of revving the engine up and down. (I don't use it)

There is nothing wrong with running lower engine speeds in terms of maintaining clean combustion and excessive exhaust soot/particulates generation, BUT! Part of it is the revving back up - that generally creates a puff of smoke. This smoke is the soot/particles that load up the DPF. So if you are constantly running the engine speed up and down, then YES, you will need more frequent DPF regens. Or if you run at low engine speed, where power output is naturally lower, and you are constantly mashing the hydro pedal and lugging the engine, you'll probably have more soot too.

In the end, you aren't wrong. I just sorta question whether keeping the engine rpms a little higher really results in a noticeably higher fuel consumption. For joe homeowner like me, it's a non-issue. For a contractor or every-day farmer, I get the concern.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #295  
Good post. But my problem isn't with the DPF reliability; I assume they will get that right eventually and all it will do is raise the price of the tractor.

I do have a problem believing that using regeneration to turn large particles into make smaller ones is a health advantage.
But that's another story.

The problem I have is with the DPF equipped tractors that are required to run at much higher RPMs than the job requires. Diesels were originally low RPM fuel efficient engines. Running them at high RPMs burns fuel simply to make the exhaust hotter. That makes more pollution, not less.
I had to get used to the higher RPMs and run in a lower gear. Before I did I had a few regens. My father in law had no clue and told me the tractor started sounding louder. I read the manual. My tractor replaced an old gas Ford 2000, so anything is more efficient. My Deere 4044M doesn't use much fuel, but then I have nothing to compare it to in Diesel.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #296  
Yeah. But the point of the dpf is to accumulate particulates, then to fully combust them during regeneration. So convert solid particulates (like PM2.5 partially burned hydrocarbons, nasty stuff) into CO2, which is inert and harmless to you. Not 100% effectively, of course.

My Kioti, like many, has "linked-pedal" mode which allows you to control engine rpm through how far you press the hydro pedals - makes it drive more like an automatic trans car. It's enjoyable and smooth. But generally results in a lot of revving the engine up and down. (I don't use it)

There is nothing wrong with running lower engine speeds in terms of maintaining clean combustion and excessive exhaust soot/particulates generation, BUT! Part of it is the revving back up - that generally creates a puff of smoke. This smoke is the soot/particles that load up the DPF. So if you are constantly running the engine speed up and down, then YES, you will need more frequent DPF regens. Or if you run at low engine speed, where power output is naturally lower, and you are constantly mashing the hydro pedal and lugging the engine, you'll probably have more soot too.

In the end, you aren't wrong. I just sorta question whether keeping the engine rpms a little higher really results in a noticeably higher fuel consumption. For joe homeowner like me, it's a non-issue. For a contractor or every-day farmer, I get the concern.
Yes, I know I'm not wrong. And I agree with part of what you are saying. Specifically, if the regen was perfect combustion then all the carbon would be converted to CO2. Simple combustion chemistry.
But as you say, it is not 100% effective. Nothing is.

The problem is I don't know and have not yet found any research on just how far from 100% effective that diesel hi-temp regen cycle is. Nothing is perfect, and the products that compose the "less than 100%" are known to be very biologically active and hazardous. So I am not yet convinced. Perhaps the "less than 100%" is nearly 100%, and perhaps that is OK.
I do think it is odd that the manufacturers haven't publicized real numbers and the public hasn't asked... don't you?

If I'm paying for a device like a DPF, I darn sure want to know what I'm getting for my money. I want to know how well it is working. Most of us would.
This isn't very difficult. It ain't rocket science.
rScotty
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #297  
A tractor engine “idling” at 1800 rpm’s is basically burning twice the diesel fuel as an engine idling at 900 rpm’s. There’s no free lunch here.
It’s all wasted energy if you’re not putting it to the wheels or pto.
The EPA can’t enact sweeping rules without creating some negatives
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #298  
1800rpm for idle?!

My '22 LS MT573 idles at 1000.
My '07 JD 3203 idles at 750.
My '05 Jinma 354 idles at 750.
My '23 Jiahe/Kubota excavator idles at 1000.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #299  
1800rpm for idle?!

My '22 LS MT573 idles at 1000.
My '07 JD 3203 idles at 750.
My '05 Jinma 354 idles at 750.
My '23 Jiahe/Kubota excavator idles at 1000.

I think what he's saying is that 1800 rpm is the effective idle - to keep the DPF happy.

My Kubota idles at 900 rpm. But once it is warmed up I keep it at least at 1800 rpm, even if I have to get off for a minute. No throttling it back it idle. If I'm going to be stopped for a longer period of time (a few minutes) I idle it down and shut it off. That's the recommended procedure per the owner's manual to make the DPF last the longest.
 
   / Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors? #300  
I think what he's saying is that 1800 rpm is the effective idle - to keep the DPF happy.

My Kubota idles at 900 rpm. But once it is warmed up I keep it at least at 1800 rpm, even if I have to get off for a minute. No throttling it back it idle. If I'm going to be stopped for a longer period of time (a few minutes) I idle it down and shut it off. That's the recommended procedure per the owner's manual to make the DPF last the longest.
My LS is the only machine that has any DPF. If the Warning light comes on showing the regen starting, I either just keep working, or I take it for a ride up and down the driveway until it finishes. I would never let the regen happen with it just sitting with a high idle. I would worry about too much heat generated and building up under the hood.
 

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