Buying Advice Tier V emission standards soon for new diesel engine tractors?

[rScotty]

Fair point. I suppose I'll just be pedantic and say that the purpose is not technically to make the particles smaller, it's to eliminate them completely, IE convert to gaseous form.

I'm also not really feeling your final point, to be honest. I run my Kioti at ~1500-1800 rpm usually. Is that much higher than an old tractor? Seems about the same to me.

Modern pickup diesels definitely rev out to some historically high rpms, but (IMO) thats for a broad high-power delivery, not just because of the DPF. They still have a huge low end torque plateau and are happy to chug along at low rpms while cruising also.

Yes, that is being pedantic. Solids, liquids, and gases all contain particles. By saying "convert to gaseous form" you are simply repeating my concern using different words. The concern is that the smaller particles are more biologically active than larger ones.

On the final point about operating RPM, I run my older diesels at 1200 to 1500 RPM when doing backhoe work and up to 1800 for loader and up to 2200 when traveling, But when there is no load demand, they automatically returns to idle. So the RPM often drops to about 800 to 900 when it is not doing work at all....even if I'm just backing away with a load or stopping to shift ranges or gears.

My friends Kioti is Tier IV, and it runs at about 1800 RPM at all times. Even when he steps off to load brush in the bucket. He says it is supposed to be run at that speed - something about idleing at low RPMs causing increased regens. I've heard others here on TBN agree. You may know more about that than I do. I know I rarely see Tier IV tractors idleing like the older ones do.

rScotty

 

[rScotty]

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www.epa.gov

Reading through that document, it looks like even if the EPA got everything they are proposing, those new regs wouldn't even start to be "phased in" until 2032. And that is only if they pass several legislative hurdles on the road to implementation...none of which are easy.

Bottom line is that the EPA is required to propose a final plan. Implementing it is another matter.

rScotty

 

[deserteagle71]

My friends Kioti is Tier IV, and it runs at about 1800 RPM at all times. Even when he steps off to load brush in the bucket. He says it is supposed to be run at that speed - something about idleing at low RPMs causing increased regens. I've heard others here on TBN agree. You may know more about that than I do. I know I rarely see Tier IV tractors idleing like the older ones do.

rScotty

Owner's manual for my 2016 Kubota M7060 specifically warns about allowing the tractor to idle too much. So with it I'm the same way as your friend...I keep the engine at working speed most of the time. Rarely let it idle. It must work because I've not had any of the emissions problems others have talked about.

 

[deezler]

Yes, that is being pedantic. Solids, liquids, and gases all contain particles. By saying "convert to gaseous form" you are simply repeating my concern using different words. The concern is that the smaller particles are more biologically active than larger ones.

On the final point about operating RPM, I run my older diesels at 1200 to 1500 RPM when doing backhoe work and up to 1800 for loader and up to 2200 when traveling, But when there is no load demand, they automatically returns to idle. So the RPM often drops to about 800 to 900 when it is not doing work at all....even if I'm just backing away with a load or stopping to shift ranges or gears.

My friends Kioti is Tier IV, and it runs at about 1800 RPM at all times. Even when he steps off to load brush in the bucket. He says it is supposed to be run at that speed - something about idleing at low RPMs causing increased regens. I've heard others here on TBN agree. You may know more about that than I do. I know I rarely see Tier IV tractors idleing like the older ones do.

rScotty

Yeah. But the point of the dpf is to accumulate particulates, then to fully combust them during regeneration. So convert solid particulates (like PM2.5 partially burned hydrocarbons, nasty stuff) into CO2, which is inert and harmless to you. Not 100% effectively, of course.

My Kioti, like many, has "linked-pedal" mode which allows you to control engine rpm through how far you press the hydro pedals - makes it drive more like an automatic trans car. It's enjoyable and smooth. But generally results in a lot of revving the engine up and down. (I don't use it)

There is nothing wrong with running lower engine speeds in terms of maintaining clean combustion and excessive exhaust soot/particulates generation, BUT! Part of it is the revving back up - that generally creates a puff of smoke. This smoke is the soot/particles that load up the DPF. So if you are constantly running the engine speed up and down, then YES, you will need more frequent DPF regens. Or if you run at low engine speed, where power output is naturally lower, and you are constantly mashing the hydro pedal and lugging the engine, you'll probably have more soot too.

In the end, you aren't wrong. I just sorta question whether keeping the engine rpms a little higher really results in a noticeably higher fuel consumption. For joe homeowner like me, it's a non-issue. For a contractor or every-day farmer, I get the concern.

 

[RB5]

Good post. But my problem isn't with the DPF reliability; I assume they will get that right eventually and all it will do is raise the price of the tractor.

I do have a problem believing that using regeneration to turn large particles into make smaller ones is a health advantage.
But that's another story.

The problem I have is with the DPF equipped tractors that are required to run at much higher RPMs than the job requires. Diesels were originally low RPM fuel efficient engines. Running them at high RPMs burns fuel simply to make the exhaust hotter. That makes more pollution, not less.

I had to get used to the higher RPMs and run in a lower gear. Before I did I had a few regens. My father in law had no clue and told me the tractor started sounding louder. I read the manual. My tractor replaced an old gas Ford 2000, so anything is more efficient. My Deere 4044M doesn't use much fuel, but then I have nothing to compare it to in Diesel.

 

[rScotty]

Yeah. But the point of the dpf is to accumulate particulates, then to fully combust them during regeneration. So convert solid particulates (like PM2.5 partially burned hydrocarbons, nasty stuff) into CO2, which is inert and harmless to you. Not 100% effectively, of course.

My Kioti, like many, has "linked-pedal" mode which allows you to control engine rpm through how far you press the hydro pedals - makes it drive more like an automatic trans car. It's enjoyable and smooth. But generally results in a lot of revving the engine up and down. (I don't use it)

There is nothing wrong with running lower engine speeds in terms of maintaining clean combustion and excessive exhaust soot/particulates generation, BUT! Part of it is the revving back up - that generally creates a puff of smoke. This smoke is the soot/particles that load up the DPF. So if you are constantly running the engine speed up and down, then YES, you will need more frequent DPF regens. Or if you run at low engine speed, where power output is naturally lower, and you are constantly mashing the hydro pedal and lugging the engine, you'll probably have more soot too.

In the end, you aren't wrong. I just sorta question whether keeping the engine rpms a little higher really results in a noticeably higher fuel consumption. For joe homeowner like me, it's a non-issue. For a contractor or every-day farmer, I get the concern.

Yes, I know I'm not wrong. And I agree with part of what you are saying. Specifically, if the regen was perfect combustion then all the carbon would be converted to CO2. Simple combustion chemistry.
But as you say, it is not 100% effective. Nothing is.

The problem is I don't know and have not yet found any research on just how far from 100% effective that diesel hi-temp regen cycle is. Nothing is perfect, and the products that compose the "less than 100%" are known to be very biologically active and hazardous. So I am not yet convinced. Perhaps the "less than 100%" is nearly 100%, and perhaps that is OK.
I do think it is odd that the manufacturers haven't publicized real numbers and the public hasn't asked... don't you?

If I'm paying for a device like a DPF, I darn sure want to know what I'm getting for my money. I want to know how well it is working. Most of us would.
This isn't very difficult. It ain't rocket science.
rScotty

 

[DarkBlack]

A tractor engine “idling” at 1800 rpm’s is basically burning twice the diesel fuel as an engine idling at 900 rpm’s. There’s no free lunch here.
It’s all wasted energy if you’re not putting it to the wheels or pto.
The EPA can’t enact sweeping rules without creating some negatives

 

[TimberFarm]

1800rpm for idle?!

My '22 LS MT573 idles at 1000.
My '07 JD 3203 idles at 750.
My '05 Jinma 354 idles at 750.
My '23 Jiahe/Kubota excavator idles at 1000.

 

[deserteagle71]

1800rpm for idle?!

My '22 LS MT573 idles at 1000.
My '07 JD 3203 idles at 750.
My '05 Jinma 354 idles at 750.
My '23 Jiahe/Kubota excavator idles at 1000.

I think what he's saying is that 1800 rpm is the effective idle - to keep the DPF happy.

My Kubota idles at 900 rpm. But once it is warmed up I keep it at least at 1800 rpm, even if I have to get off for a minute. No throttling it back it idle. If I'm going to be stopped for a longer period of time (a few minutes) I idle it down and shut it off. That's the recommended procedure per the owner's manual to make the DPF last the longest.

 

[TimberFarm]

I think what he's saying is that 1800 rpm is the effective idle - to keep the DPF happy.

My Kubota idles at 900 rpm. But once it is warmed up I keep it at least at 1800 rpm, even if I have to get off for a minute. No throttling it back it idle. If I'm going to be stopped for a longer period of time (a few minutes) I idle it down and shut it off. That's the recommended procedure per the owner's manual to make the DPF last the longest.

My LS is the only machine that has any DPF. If the Warning light comes on showing the regen starting, I either just keep working, or I take it for a ride up and down the driveway until it finishes. I would never let the regen happen with it just sitting with a high idle. I would worry about too much heat generated and building up under the hood.