Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[CADplans]

I've got a Caroni TM1900 with a heat issue. Any ideas?

Got any pics of the belt?

My flail has an idler that forces the belt to wrap further around the pulleys, giving the belt a much better chance to grab, rather than slipping,,

If slipping is an issue, an inch longer belt, with an extra idler may cure the heat/burned belt issue,,

Other than that, is the tractor too high of horsepower for the size of mower?

 

[leonz]

Good Morning Hillbilly,

I want to welcome you as the newest resident member of the flail mower nations from the great Canadian Province of British Columbia.

I am proud to say I have a first edition copy of "THE IMPOSSIBLE RAILWAY" and it is a great book about the CPRR that was well written.


Before I forget it again; heat issues can occur from material wrapped around the Flail Mower Rotor which will be rubbing against the bearing flange housing.

If you have nothing wrapped around that side of the Flail Mower Rotor chances are the belts were too tight.

1. How tall is the brush you are mowing?
2. what speed were you using?
3. what is your mowing height?
4. Is your skid height mounted above the rear roller?
5. Do you grease before you mow or after you finish mowing?


I was just chatting with a fellow on Vancouver Island, anyway the only other possible heat generator is that the belts are too tight and that can ruin bearings.

Can you stop mowing for a day or two and order a Gates V belt tension gauge from amazon? Doing that will guarantee that your belts are not too tight and your heat problems will go away.

 

[noco]

thanks Leonz

I will give them a call today. Thanks Ill let you guys know what I find. I'm not the best with computers and adding pictures. I couldn't see the picture of the cutter in my last post so I'm just throwing it on again on this reply for practice lol. Thanks again

 

[prof fate]

I've got a Caroni TM1900 with a heat issue. After using it for about 30 minutes the cover over the belts is so hot I can't keep my hand on it. I felt along the driveshaft cover and the gear box and could tell the heat was being generated from the belt drive end of the shaft. Pulled the cover and found the belts were trashed. I replaced the belts with new kevlar ones and the heat persists. When the belts were off I turned all of the moving parts on that end to see if I could feel or hear a bad bearing but everything felt fine. When I checked the gear oil the level was fine but it had an odd color, kind of a creamy color, not grey which would suggest water. I replaced the gear oil anyways but still have the heat issue.

Any ideas?

my woodmaxx is the same - the cover gets so hot you can't touch it (140f if I recall my temp check). That's a NEW unit...and now it has 20 hours on it and no change. Took the cover off, all seems good.

The bearing/tube/etc are not hot like that. Tempted to put some kind of heat sink on it!

 

[Hilbilly]

Got any pics of the belt?

My flail has an idler that forces the belt to wrap further around the pulleys, giving the belt a much better chance to grab, rather than slipping,,

If slipping is an issue, an inch longer belt, with an extra idler may cure the heat/burned belt issue,,

Other than that, is the tractor too high of horsepower for the size of mower?

I don't have any pics of the belts (new ones I assume) but could get some if it helps.

I don't think the belts are slipping. I don't hear any squealing but I guess it could be slipping and not making a noise loud enough for this old man to hear it.

The tractor is 60hp but I'm not working the mower very hard. Just mowing sparse, dry grass that is about 12" tall.

Good Morning Hillbilly,

I want to welcome you as the newest resident member of the flail mower nations from the great Canadian Province of British Columbia.

I am proud to say I have a first edition copy of "THE IMPOSSIBLE RAILWAY" and it is a great book about the CPRR that was well written.


Before I forget it again; heat issues can occur from material wrapped around the Flail Mower Rotor which will be rubbing against the bearing flange housing.

If you have nothing wrapped around that side of the Flail Mower Rotor chances are the belts were too tight.

1. How tall is the brush you are mowing? Grass about 12" high
2. what speed were you using? about 3 kmh
3. what is your mowing height? around 4"
4. Is your skid height mounted above the rear roller? about the same height - the skids drag occasionally
5. Do you grease before you mow or after you finish mowing? before


I was just chatting with a fellow on Vancouver Island, anyway the only other possible heat generator is that the belts are too tight and that can ruin bearings.

Can you stop mowing for a day or two and order a Gates V belt tension gauge from amazon? I won't need to use the mower for a week or so. I checked out the Gates gauge and it appears that I need a spec for the belt deflection to use the gauge. My owners manual does not give a specDoing that will guarantee that your belts are not too tight and your heat problems will go away.

 

[troverman]

I've got a Caroni TM1900 with a heat issue. After using it for about 30 minutes the cover over the belts is so hot I can't keep my hand on it. I felt along the driveshaft cover and the gear box and could tell the heat was being generated from the belt drive end of the shaft. Pulled the cover and found the belts were trashed. I replaced the belts with new kevlar ones and the heat persists. When the belts were off I turned all of the moving parts on that end to see if I could feel or hear a bad bearing but everything felt fine. When I checked the gear oil the level was fine but it had an odd color, kind of a creamy color, not grey which would suggest water. I replaced the gear oil anyways but still have the heat issue.

Any ideas?

New belts stretch and then they slip. They should be checked and tightened after 5-10 hours. When they slip they get hot. They leave rubber deposits on the pulleys. I壇 remove the belts and clean the pulleys with brake cleaner. Then install new belts, tighten them up quite snugly. Run them a few hours and check and tighten them again.

 

[leonz]

Hello Hillbilly,

refreshing my memory about the TM1900 reminded me that the V belt snubber is spring tensioned and compresses against the flat portion of the 3 V belts.

Have you looked under the mower to see if there is anything wrapped around the Flail Mower Rotor on the pulley side of the flail mower???

If you can obtain some good images of the belts with the numbers that are on the top carcass or melted into the rubber that will help me a lot.

With V belts they all start out as metric but there are so many variations with v belt types, webbing, and whether they are single duplex or triplex V belts and the cross section cause headaches for the user that does not have the actual specs for the V belts; do you hear that John Deere??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Until I hear from you about the flail mower rotor and anything possibly wrapped around it all I can do is wait as the flail mower should not be experiencing issues with the V belts as they are free to move as needed with the snubber and spring tensioner arm against the three V belts.

You will not need to purchase a V belt tension gauge for your flail mower as it has a spring tension snubber system just like my Mathews Lawn Genie Pick up Mower.

NOW if all three V belts do not have the same identical lot number it could create problems for your beautiful flail mower as they could have different actual lengths due to the nylon thread, the weaving of the V belt and the rubber batch used to cover the thread weaving in layers.
Every V belt lot number is different and every thread type and rubber is different for each batch of V belts.

I would imagine that the reason they do not use a triplex V belt is due to the purchasing expense but the triplex V belt would eliminate any chance of having V belts with different lot numbers which would cause problems.
A triplex V belt would be the preferred V belt for them but I am sure the purchase cost for a triplex V belt is what made the Caroni family use three V belts for this beautiful flail mower.

 

[Hilbilly]

Hello Hillbilly,

refreshing my memory about the TM1900 reminded me that the V belt snubber is spring tensioned and compresses against the flat portion of the 3 V belts.

Have you looked under the mower to see if there is anything wrapped around the Flail Mower Rotor on the pulley side of the flail mower???

If you can obtain some good images of the belts with the numbers that are on the top carcass or melted into the rubber that will help me a lot.

With V belts they all start out as metric but there are so many variations with v belt types, webbing, and whether they are single duplex or triplex V belts and the cross section cause headaches for the user that does not have the actual specs for the V belts; do you hear that John Deere??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Until I hear from you about the flail mower rotor and anything possibly wrapped around it all I can do is wait as the flail mower should not be experiencing issues with the V belts as they are free to move as needed with the snubber and spring tensioner arm against the three V belts.

You will not need to purchase a V belt tension gauge for your flail mower as it has a spring tension snubber system just like my Mathews Lawn Genie Pick up Mower.

NOW if all three V belts do not have the same identical lot number it could create problems for your beautiful flail mower as they could have different actual lengths due to the nylon thread, the weaving of the V belt and the rubber batch used to cover the thread weaving in layers.
Every V belt lot number is different and every thread type and rubber is different for each batch of V belts.

I would imagine that the reason they do not use a triplex V belt is due to the purchasing expense but the triplex V belt would eliminate any chance of having V belts with different lot numbers which would cause problems.
A triplex V belt would be the preferred V belt for them but I am sure the purchase cost for a triplex V belt is what made the Caroni family use three V belts for this beautiful flail mower.

I pulled the cover off and got the numbers. A&I Products 5/8" x 45" B42K, 5L450K. Does that help?

Toverman; I also looked closely at the belt tension and pulleys. I think you are right and the belts are slipping. When I get a chance I'm going to adjust them tighter after I clean the pulleys, as you suggested. Probably won't get to this for awhile though.

Thank you both for your quick responses and help.

 

[Molalla1]

Hello Hillbilly,

refreshing my memory about the TM1900 reminded me that the V belt snubber is spring tensioned and compresses against the flat portion of the 3 V belts.

Have you looked under the mower to see if there is anything wrapped around the Flail Mower Rotor on the pulley side of the flail mower???

If you can obtain some good images of the belts with the numbers that are on the top carcass or melted into the rubber that will help me a lot.

With V belts they all start out as metric but there are so many variations with v belt types, webbing, and whether they are single duplex or triplex V belts and the cross section cause headaches for the user that does not have the actual specs for the V belts; do you hear that John Deere??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Until I hear from you about the flail mower rotor and anything possibly wrapped around it all I can do is wait as the flail mower should not be experiencing issues with the V belts as they are free to move as needed with the snubber and spring tensioner arm against the three V belts.

You will not need to purchase a V belt tension gauge for your flail mower as it has a spring tension snubber system just like my Mathews Lawn Genie Pick up Mower.

NOW if all three V belts do not have the same identical lot number it could create problems for your beautiful flail mower as they could have different actual lengths due to the nylon thread, the weaving of the V belt and the rubber batch used to cover the thread weaving in layers.
Every V belt lot number is different and every thread type and rubber is different for each batch of V belts.

I would imagine that the reason they do not use a triplex V belt is due to the purchasing expense but the triplex V belt would eliminate any chance of having V belts with different lot numbers which would cause problems.
A triplex V belt would be the preferred V belt for them but I am sure the purchase cost for a triplex V belt is what made the Caroni family use three V belts for this beautiful flail mower.

You do know a lot about . . . .

 

[leonz]

Hello Hillbilly,


You mean to tell me that your TM1900 does not have the spring V belt tension arm??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me get back to you tomorrow as something is off with those belt numbers.

If you have a KAMAN Industrial office nearby they can help you but they may have to have the V belts shipped in.

 

[Hilbilly]

Hello Hillbilly,


You mean to tell me that your TM1900 does not have the spring V belt tension arm??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me get back to you tomorrow as something is off with those belt numbers.

If you have a KAMAN Industrial office nearby they can help you but they may have to have the V belts shipped in.

No, it has a spring tensioner roller but it is adjustable and seems like the belts could be tighter. If I knew what the proper tension should be then I would get the Gates tension tester and know for sure. But the owners manual I have gives no explanation regarding setting the proper tension.

The belts I gave you numbers for are the new ones I installed. The came from Princess Auto who recently changed belt suppliers and got 3 of each belt size. I bought all 3 of the size I noted above. I would think the belts would all be from the run since these are the first 3 belts of this size that they got from this supplier. However, the supplier could have mixed some old stock with new.

 

[Molalla1]

^^^^ I'll leave you alone leonz . . .

 

[leonz]

I promise to behave, honest!!!

 

[leonz]

No, it has a spring tensioner roller but it is adjustable and seems like the belts could be tighter. If I knew what the proper tension should be then I would get the Gates tension tester and know for sure. But the owners manual I have gives no explanation regarding setting the proper tension.

The belts I gave you numbers for are the new ones I installed. The came from Princess Auto who recently changed belt suppliers and got 3 of each belt size. I bought all 3 of the size I noted above. I would think the belts would all be from the run since these are the first 3 belts of this size that they got from this supplier. However, the supplier could have mixed some old stock with new.

==========================================================================================================


Hello and good morning Hillbilly,

Please give me a few hours to contact my friends in Italy to obtain the correct tension needed in Newton meters for the V belts.

 

[Hilbilly]

Good morning Leon's. Boy you are definitely the flail mower man. Even have contacts in Italy,lol.

Since you are doing this, Imwill order the Gates gauge. That wat I will know it is set right.

By the way I think it is a belt tension issue. The pulleys feel like they glazed. I will take some brake cleaner to them and maybe a light sanding before I make any more adjustments.

 

[ericm979]

V-belt tensioning: How to Tension a V-Belt (& How Not to) | IBT Industrial Solutions

there's a link in there to a table that you can use to calculate the correct tension after making a few measurements.

 

[leonz]

Hello Hillbilly,

I am coming back to this a bit later than I want to but:

If you have a low grit number paper or sand paper for that matter it will break the
glaze and clean each sheave on the three pulleys.

What eric979 has provided you is fine the issue is making sure the 3 V belts have the same lot number.

IF you had a triplex V belt or a triplex cogged V belt tensioning it would be a breeze too.



NOW:

There are five issues with the new belts and the sheave pulleys

1. the cross section area of the V belts must match the cross section area of the pulley exactly
2. the V belts must not protrude above the sheave groove, it must be no higher than the top of the pulley edge
3. the V belts must be properly tensioned with the adjuster before the first use and checked occasionally as needed
4. each one of the 9 V belts you have will have a lot number on it
5. each "separate size belt" must have the same lot number "on all three belts". Don't let anyone tell you that you can run V belts with three different lot numbers on the same triple sheave/pulley.

If the three V belts do not have the same lot number "they will not tension properly OR equally" and can fail prematurely.
I am hoping that one of the Caroni folks gets back to me by early tomorrow our time so I can help you fix this as they are 10-11 hours ahead of me and fifteen hours ahead of you in British Columbia.

Just bear with me and as red green says; keep your stick on the ice.

I have chores to do.

 

[JWR]

I got the offset, for $290 extra it's well worth it.

three uses for it - under fences is my biggie. I have a mile of horse fence.

over top of banks next to the road and similar sitiations where you need to mow a foot or 2 beside you but can't put you tractor there.

Third, trees...I can stay away from them.

And best, being offset it's MUCH easier to mow close to things (fences, buildings, etc) - first you can see it better sticking out and if you get too close you can slide it back in a bit and avoid having to stop, backup, steer away, etc.

You forgot the fourth one: Bashing out the frame to the garage door failing to remember that the offset flail mower sticks out there well past the tires. I speak from experience unfortunately.

 

[JWR]

I've got a Caroni TM1900 with a heat issue. After using it for about 30 minutes the cover over the belts is so hot I can't keep my hand on it. I felt along the driveshaft cover and the gear box and could tell the heat was being generated from the belt drive end of the shaft. Pulled the cover and found the belts were trashed. I replaced the belts with new kevlar ones and the heat persists. When the belts were off I turned all of the moving parts on that end to see if I could feel or hear a bad bearing but everything felt fine. When I checked the gear oil the level was fine but it had an odd color, kind of a creamy color, not grey which would suggest water. I replaced the gear oil anyways but still have the heat issue.

Any ideas?

I would guess rather strongly that your belt/belts are slipping. That's about the only way you'll get that much heat up there (since you manually rotated things and they all seem free to rotate.) I have no experience with a Caroni but the flail mower I use has a very strong tensioner spring which keeps good tension on the drive belt. You are not running in such heavy/wet/deep grass that it bogs down are you ?

 

[Hilbilly]

I would guess rather strongly that your belt/belts are slipping. That's about the only way you'll get that much heat up there (since you manually rotated things and they all seem free to rotate.) I have no experience with a Caroni but the flail mower I use has a very strong tensioner spring which keeps good tension on the drive belt. You are not running in such heavy/wet/deep grass that it bogs down are you ?

No the grass is dry and sparse. Not loading the mower at all. I am sure it is a belt tension issue now and have ordered the Gates tension gauge. Should be here on Wednesday. The Caroni has a spring loaded tension spring but it is adjustable and when I get back to this I will put more pressure on the belts and clean / sand the pulleys to remove any glaze. It might be a few days though as I'm in the middle of another project. Converting a 3PTH brush mower to an FEL side mount mower.