Generator wiring

   / Generator wiring #41  
What I'm saying is if someone is so concerned with death or injury from electrocution they should be MUCH MORE concerned with death or injury from driving.
Correct?
Note that my post #6 my advice to the OP is decide what he wants, cleaning up the main panel...bringing it up to modern code...that's best left to an electrician.
Here, the very rare cases I've used my generator things are done in sequence. A few neighbors had Generac systems installed which to me is ludicrous.
Why should they be more concerned about driving? So what if more people get injured or killed while driving compared to electrocutions? How many people are hurt driving compared to how many hours of driving? Then how many people are electrocuted compared to how many hours working on stuff that can electrocute them? I don't know the answer. But in order to judge which is the most dangerous using only the number of injured or killed then the number of people doing the thing that injures or kills must also be known. So your conclusion from the information you posted is incorrect.
 
   / Generator wiring #42  
This whole conversation has gone off the rails! No one understands statistics, when or what to be concerned or worry about...it's insanity at it's finest! Does anyone understand common sense logic?
1) Post 1: The synopsis of a lengthy post by the OP is (quote): "I would love to disconnect (and ultimately remove) all connections to individual circuits from the gen panel to the main panel."
2) my reply Post 6: (quote): "this is a case where paying an electrician I would do."
3) my reply Post 13:(quote): "I'd decide what you want to do and have an electrician do it. My 2c."
4) Post 20: how I use my generator on extremely rare occasions
5) Post 25: (quote) "Following all the steps each time carefully you are correct." Then (paraphrased) wife wants to watch soap operas, flips breakers, I forget sequence of connections, my wife or brother in law (which I have no brother in law) gets electrocuted, or an arc flash occurs, or linesman gets electrocuted, then funerals to attend, then some guy blows up his generator buy throwing the breaker, then the utility company pulls meter from an improper installation and inspection.
I believe everyone should fight among yourselves within this lunatic asylum!
6) Now...just for the OP...CALL AN ELECTRICIAN!!!!!
 
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   / Generator wiring #43  
This is a little off topic, but I bet some of you know the answer. I just bought a house built in 1979. It has a generator hook-up, but the realtor said it has never been used--not part of the issue. It was installed and wired by a reputable local electrician. Attached to the generator cable connection box is a 12-circuit load panel with a double 60 being incoming power from the main load center and a double 20 being incoming from the generator connection. The remaining 12 breakers (some are tandems) are wired to individual circuits in the main panel.

What this amounts to is circuit A being a black and white wire leaving the main panel, (but still long enough to go around the perimeter of the panel as originally wired) , but powered by a yellow (or any other color) wire from a breaker in the gen panel to the black wire, and a white wire from the gen panel to the white wire in the circuit A. With 12 out-going breakers in the gen panel there are 24 additional wires entering the main panel and wire-nutted to the existing black and white out-going wires PLUS there are circuits in the main panel that are not connected to the gen panel. The congestion of wires in the main panel is beyond anything I have ever seen.

Despite having power outages a few times per year, I have never felt it necessary to buy a generator, and I have no experience with them. I would think that a generator would just push juice into the main panel replacing what normally comes from the grid. Clearly the gen won't put out the everyday amperage, so the homeowner needs to determine what he wants to run--the water pump, freezer, refrig and furnace , but not every light and appliance in the house.

I would love to disconnect (and ultimately remove) all connections to individual circuits from the gen panel to the main panel. I am not an electrician, but I feel perfectly comfortable inside a 30 circuit 150 amp panel. Is there some good reason why I must retain this multi-colored bowl of spaghetti in my load center?
The answer to your question is no you do not need to keep the mess, secondly it is acode violation as is A the panel is not allowed to be a junction box. B. You have to have an interlock to keep you from back feeding the utility line. I recommend you hire an electrician.
I am an electrical enengeering P. E.
Good luck
 
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   / Generator wiring #44  
I fool with generators often. First one is an Allis Chalmers 50 kw at my shop. It does single and three phase with a brushless generator. Second one I just put a circuit board in because it wasn't coming on weekly for its self check, 175 kw. Then after I had it working, the power went off two days later. The pull on solenoid was not holding throttle open. It was 21 years old, so I had a dandy of a time finding one. Finally did, but it was different. Had to use the guts out of old one and magnet coil from new one to make it work. Had to fix it, farm owner was ready to pull the trigger on another lightly used one for 30 grand. Third one is fine. Welder needed a circuit board. I have another welder, a few years older, that needs an exciter or stuck brushes, have not investigated it yet. Runs fine but no weld, only sparks. Electricians call me to go on big farm generator calls, because they don't know much about them. So when you have 25,000 chickens that Tyson wants $23.00 each for, it becomes critical. Generator runs two houses. 12,500 birds in each house. If you get them automatic transfer switches, ants love them things. They won't work with ants around. Just had two houses die a few months ago, not me, a customer. Chickens dead in 30 minutes. Their houses are full tunnel and don't have the side curtains like the one pictured. Side curtains have an automatic drop in case of a no power situation. So, power went off, gen was not on, no fans moving air, all birds died. Generator did not come on. Turns out they were using fuel from generator tank to run the tractors. Plus the weekly self check uses fuel too. Generator tank was empty and I can't fix that problem. That is their responsibility as a farm owner to keep the tank full. Which, they had 6 houses, I just tore down three of theirs that collapsed in the 18" snow we had. I'm fine with them using fuel out of gen tank because it keeps fresh fuel in there. But, it has to be kept topped off.

I don't see a problem with the situation you have. Maybe look into understanding it instead of undoing it. Since generators became popular, power companies ground out the wires they are working on. That will toast your generator. Just turn utility main off on your side of meter. Crank generator and turn the breakers on that you need. When power comes back on, turn off generator breakers, turn on utility breakers. I see no problem with that. Seems a simple trouble free experience. Or, you can go automatic, and it gilflirts when you need it, and you wait on a "specialized technician" that can figure out all the load sensors. Then when it (technician) shows up, you done froze for a week and power is back on anyway. That 1979 stuff ain't so bad. I drove to Alaska and everywhere else I want to go in a 1976 pickup, recently. If I leave my driveway and turn south, 21 miles to Louisiana.
The system he describes is a walking talking code violation, that is a fact not an opinion. The instilation needs to be un-installed and corrected.
 
   / Generator wiring #45  
The few times I run our 9kW portable generator I simply go in this order:
1) Turn main and all breakers off in main panel box, (except to garage 250 ft.away.)
2) Connect generator to welder outlet, leaving just garage main and welder breaker on.
3) Run generator.
4) At house turn well pump and water heater breaker on, as well as refrigerator.
5) Meter display let's me know when power is restored. A pilot light on main breaker meter side does same thing.
6) Shut generator off.
7) Disconnect generator.
8) Garage breakers on.
9) Main breaker on and others in main box.
If you let your utility company know about this you will not have power to your home untill you correct it.
 
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   / Generator wiring #46  
Everyone's situation is different. I'm not going to change the way I do things just to appease a scenario that doesn't exist! Anyone is welcome installing anything they wish here at their expense. It's just the two of us here, no kids, brother in law etc., no use in fantasy dreams not based in reality. My wife is a smart lady, retired technician who knows not to flip breakers on if/when generator is running.
Two disconnect switches: manual and automatic. The main breaker IS a manual disconnect switch. Now automatic...does anyone believe they're 100% fail-safe? Could it malfunction? Personally I'm much rather have a manual disconnect.
Finally, the very few times we've lost power an electric company tech goes door to door making sure generators are off before power is restored!
Now orezok...your turn making up fantasy stories, you can tell us about funerals, flower arrangements and kinds of hearses.
Go for it.
I understand, but you have a code violation of your own making not my place to be the TBN electrical hall monitor but be aware that you will be personally liable for any accidents that may occure. In my Profesional opinion you need to bring that up to code.
 
   / Generator wiring #47  
What I'm saying is if someone is so concerned with death or injury from electrocution they should be MUCH MORE concerned with death or injury from driving.
Correct?
Note that my post #6 my advice to the OP is decide what he wants, cleaning up the main panel...bringing it up to modern code...that's best left to an electrician.
Here, the very rare cases I've used my generator things are done in sequence. A few neighbors had Generac systems installed which to me is ludicrous.
There is a difrance between an accident and neglengence and another between negligence and willful neglengence.
 
   / Generator wiring #48  
Everyone's situation is different. I'm not going to change the way I do things just to appease a scenario that doesn't exist! Anyone is welcome installing anything they wish here at their expense. It's just the two of us here, no kids, brother in law etc., no use in fantasy dreams not based in reality. My wife is a smart lady, retired technician who knows not to flip breakers on if/when generator is running.
Two disconnect switches: manual and automatic. The main breaker IS a manual disconnect switch. Now automatic...does anyone believe they're 100% fail-safe? Could it malfunction? Personally I'm much rather have a manual disconnect.
Finally, the very few times we've lost power an electric company tech goes door to door making sure generators are off before power is restored!
Now orezok...your turn making up fantasy stories, you can tell us about funerals, flower arrangements and kinds of hearses.
Go for it.
Bless your heart
 
   / Generator wiring #49  
What I'm saying is if someone is so concerned with death or injury from electrocution they should be MUCH MORE concerned with death or injury from driving.
Correct?
Not so much if you are driving with defective brakes. Hmmmm
 
   / Generator wiring #50  
There is a difrance between an accident and neglengence and another between negligence and willful neglengence.
I'll reply to DaBear's three posts.
WHAT CODE VIOLATION AM I COMMITING?
Send me a PM, I'll send you my information, the name and number of my power company and/or county inspection department and you can report me, making a fool of yourself!
Explain to the audience my code violation(s)?
 
   / Generator wiring #51  
Not so much if you are driving with defective brakes. Hmmmm
Me? Driving with defective brakes? Uh...OK...another nice off topic post.
Thanks.
Four times now to the OP, and look back on replies I was the first to suggest this: CALL AN ELECTRICIAN!
 
   / Generator wiring #52  
It falls under NEC 702. Its considered optional in that it allows authority having jurisdiction to have final say so, meaning different cities and utilities can have their own requirements. For instance where i live, the public and private utilities send out letters which state that your power can be cut off if they find your not using an interconnect or listed transfer switch.

For non essential uses like home backup, its far more lenient than for emergency backup, but essentially it falls back to authority having jurisdiction . Most utility companies require this, and in the 4 states where i worked as an electrician they required it. I have no idea what state you live in
image.jpg
, so cant comment on your situation.
 
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   / Generator wiring #53  
Tree Grower asks for assistance.
I suggest (after youtube video link and other how to do it suggestions) call a professional electrician who would do it correctly bringing everything up to code.
I mentioned how on RARE occasions I connect my generator which lots of people do with affirmation that's ok if done in that order. Now attention away from the OP with irrelevant replies to ME! What 'tha?
 
   / Generator wiring #54  
It falls under NEC 702. Its considered optional in that it allows authority having jurisdiction to have final say so, meaning different cities and utilities can have their own requirements. For instance where i live, the public and private utilities send out letters which state that your power can be cut off if they find your not using an i terconnect or listed transfer switch.

For non essential uses like home backup, its far more lenient than for emergency backup, but essentially it falls back to authority having jurisdiction . Most utility companies require this, and in the 4 states where i worked as an electrician they required it. I have no idea what stare you live inView attachment 772110, so cant comment on your situation.
Uhhhh...thanks. Great info.
(What stare I live in?)
Thanks for affirmation I'm connecting my generator correctly as per your code book.View attachment 772116
 
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   / Generator wiring #55  
The answer to your question is no you do not need to keep the mess, secondly it is acode violation as is A the panel is not allowed to be a junction box. B. You have to have an interlock to keep you from backfiring the utility line. I recommend you hire an electrician.
I am an electrical enengeering P. E.
Good luck
You are technically correct. The panel is not rated to be a junction box. I have brought up this fact with inspectors over the years, the first time was when i added a portable generator interlock box that had a thick, wire filled conduit that attached to the house panel. It was UL Rated and designed to unhook neutral and hot on 10 selected circuits and included wire nuts for connecting wires.

I questioned inspector on how this is allowed, all he said was its UL listed and approved, so they have no problem with it. Again, this fell into a Authority having Jurisdiction area. Gets pretty confusing. Especially when ive been busted for using wirenuts inside a breaker panel to extend wires In the past.

this craziness is one of the reasons im glad to be a retired electrician.
 
   / Generator wiring #56  
Bless your heart
And bless your heart for sending the OP's topic off the rails:
"Thats all well and good, but what if you are somewhere else and your wife or brother-in-law sez, OK, I can get us power back up. You ready to schedule a funeral? Don’t say that they know better, because they probably don’t."
Reminds me of the fourth Wiseman turned away for bringing fruitcake you posted in the Groan thread. Are you the fourth Wiseman?
 
   / Generator wiring #57  
Uhhhh...thanks. Great info.
(What stare I live in?)
Thanks for affirmation I'm connecting my generator correctly as per your code book.View attachment 772116
Are you? I have no idea whether or not your building dept or utility supplier would agree with this statement. Only your saying they would. Bet they would not.

id just love to see a utility supplier tell someone they dont need an interconnect. Talk about opening themselves up to a lawsuit.
 
   / Generator wiring #59  
well, he did save himself $69.


anyways, all the OP needs to do to make their system safe, is to install an interlock. me, i would clean up the panel cause it looks like a blind man installed it. but it could safely be used as it is with an interlock. as it is, if someone accidentally turns on the 2 pole 20 breaker, that male generator plug will be a death trap.
 
   / Generator wiring #60  
First of all, thanks for all the feedback. For me the opportunity to bounce an idea around is just as valuable as the right answer in the first place.

Attached photos show my situation. Just to clarify, I don't wish to disconnect the generator feed- I might need it. Also, I subconsciously have wondered about the risk of feeding juice back into the grid. The 4 square box to the right of the gen panel appears to be only a receptacle, not a switch. The instructions to the right imply that the transfer must be done manually--?? by switching off the feed from the main, and switching on the feed from the gen ??

In tracing wires between the panels and from the main panel out into the house, it appears that the electrician and/or homeowner just chose which circuits to include and which to leave out.

What I think I really want is an automatic transfer from the generator to the main panel w/o having any individual circuits connected between the two. If this is not possible I won't fight it, but I would like know why.
Looking at your photos, that looks fairly typical. Just not neat and tidy.

People are under the impression that there's no disconnect in there. I think there is.

Can you post a picture of the breaker labels?

I'd guess there's something in that setup somewhere that prevents applying street power and generator power to those breakers in the generator panel at the same time.

Pictures of the labeled panels would help quit a bit. ;)
 

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