Gasoline Tractors are they coming Back ?

[rScotty]

The game just changed . . .

Article in today's news that the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California just got a net energy gain from their experimental fusion reactor. 2.1 Megajoules in, 2.5 Megajoules out.

Official announcement tomorrow (Tuesday), sneak preview on Ars Technica website.

That means the whole idea of "fusion" to create power has just been shown to work.

Now to commercialize it - if you have stock in coal mines, sell now, if you have stock in oil companies, start to get nervous, when this starts to work large-scale, nobody will need supertankers any more, OPEC will be a relic and a sorry footnote, copper (for wires) is going to go up in price because everything will be electric. Oil prices will plummet because of much less demand, same for natural gas, same for suppliers of oil well equipment, pipelines, less need for tank cars or gasoline trucks, the list goes on.

The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rocks, we discovered something better.

Now that we know the concept works (after 50+ years of trying!), we want to plan ahead because this changes all kinds of things. It may take 20 years for large scale commercialization, but it will happen. It will also encourage lots of smaller companies that have been working on fusion to redouble their efforts because now fusion isn't just theoretical, it actually works - small, for the first time, but Orville and Wilbur's first flight was only 127 feet or so, and you see what developed out of that.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

The game just changed . . .

Article in today's news that the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California just got a net energy gain from their experimental fusion reactor. 2.1 Megajoules in, 2.5 Megajoules out.

Official announcement tomorrow (Tuesday), sneak preview on Ars Technica website.

That means the whole idea of "fusion" to create power has just been shown to work.

Now to commercialize it - if you have stock in coal mines, sell now, if you have stock in oil companies, start to get nervous, when this starts to work large-scale, nobody will need supertankers any more, OPEC will be a relic and a sorry footnote, copper (for wires) is going to go up in price because everything will be electric. Oil prices will plummet because of much less demand, same for natural gas, same for suppliers of oil well equipment, pipelines, less need for tank cars or gasoline trucks, the list goes on.

The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rocks, we discovered something better.

Now that we know the concept works (after 50+ years of trying!), we want to plan ahead because this changes all kinds of things. It may take 20 years for large scale commercialization, but it will happen. It will also encourage lots of smaller companies that have been working on fusion to redouble their efforts because now fusion isn't just theoretical, it actually works - small, for the first time, but Orville and Wilbur's first flight was only 127 feet or so, and you see what developed out of that.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

That's funny! Ars Technica Science News. Aren't they the standard in something or other? Not sure what, but it was in something though.

Surely is a good thing we have the reliable Internet to keep those sneaky scientists from all the time trying to pull wool over our eyes.

 

[sunandsand]

That's funny! Ars Technica Science News. Aren't they the standard in something or other? Not sure what, but it was in something though.

Surely is a good thing we have the reliable Internet to keep those sneaky scientists from all the time trying to pull wool over our eyes.

It was also noted in Fox Business news, and that is also a standard in something or other. Fox was light on how it works, but they assured us that an elite team of reptilian shape-shifters will be on call to shove any residual byproducts off edge of the flat earth, so the problem is handled. Remember, Winston Churchill said that if you read it on the internet, it must be true.

Personally, I'd be happy if this thing works only 10% as well as they claim, it is still going to make a huge difference in many, many ways. Think about all the moving parts in the fossil fuel ecosystem - miners, railroad cars, tankers, OPEC, pollution, politics, pipelines, refineries, and more. Many of them will become redundant and/or irrelevant. It is going to be an interesting ride.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[mo1]

They already tried the big displacement gas engines. They didnt work.
How do you make a (gas) engine that has to rev much higher have a similar life span as a diesel engine? What about low RPM torque in gas v. diesel?

Off road machinery needs to make max power at low RPM to minimize fuel consumption.

What I would like to know is just how polluting is todays diesel engine, with a DPF/DEF system? When I see technicians repairing them in an enclosed shop, they must be pretty clean.

Heavy-duty and off-road large-displacement gasoline engines went away during the 1970s when fuel prices really went up, and diesel was noticeably less expensive per gallon than gasoline. Those gassers were all old carbureted engines, so noticeably less efficient than a modern EFI engine. There wasn't a different in required emissions components as there is now, either. With gasoline being noticeably less expensive today than diesel, emissions compliance being much less expensive and more reliable to meet on a new gasoline engine than a diesel, and the efficiency of gasoline engines and diesels being much closer, I am curious if the math might work out differently than it did half a century ago when the big-bore gassers went away.

Medium-duty trucks are still available with gas engines. I can't say exactly how popular they are but they have remained popular enough to not be discontinued in favor of diesels as happened in off-road equipment and heavy trucks.

Gasoline engines can run at higher speeds than diesels, due to diesel combustion being much slower to complete than gasoline combustion. But, they don't have to do so. Gasoline tractor engines didn't run faster than diesels, for example.

Diesel engines of today make as much torque as they do because they are heavily turbocharged. The old naturally-aspirated diesels made less torque at a given displacement than a gasoline engine did, which is why the old gasoline tractors generally had slightly smaller engines than the diesel version of that tractor did, despite making similar power and running at similar RPMs. You can turbocharge a gasoline engine and it can make a ton of low-end torque. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, this either requires expensive and complicated direct injection or a fuel with more octane than regular gasoline.

Minimizing operating speed will gain a little fuel efficiency due to reduced frictional losses, but most of that benefit is seen in low-load situations. Put a load on the engine and the fuel usage for the higher-speed and lower-speed engines are a whole lot closer compared to what they use at fast idle. A big reason RPMs are kept low is to moderate the piston speed in these engines with large-bore cylinders with long piston strokes.

A modern Tier 4 diesel is very minimally polluting. They are noticeably more expensive and generally less fuel efficient than prior diesels though, as the emissions equipment likes to be kept hot (which takes extra fuel to do so.)

 

[mo1]

Interesting to read on how you guys the other side of the pond are still going for petrol [gas] engines. Here I don't think I've seen a new tractor that runs on petrol or petrol/parraffin [kerosine] since the 1960s. Back just after WW11 many in fact most farmers had petrol or petrol/parraffin, that you switched over too when the engine got warmed up, A lot of the tractors came from your side of the pond. Most diesels at that time were a pain to start in the cold. That was until MF brought out the little MF35 later 135 and the MF65 and 165. On reading your posts, no one mentioned running on parraffin [kerosine]. Here in England it's nearly the same price as petrol at the pump. They say its because of there's no demand. Loads of rubbish, what are all those aeroplanes running on, I guess our government don't want us simple minions using the stuff. Electric tractors, no not seen one, Theres plenty of motor cars, but our government has just altered the tax system so they now have to pay more tax. As governments do after they have convinced every one to buy one. Weve got a small fishing fleet in my town, Non are on electric, all diesel. some like your Caterpiler engines, others go for Perkins and Ford. Interesting I see a lot of ships now use electric drive motors driven by diesel generators. Years ago there was a massive crane/drag line not far from me. It was run on by electric, but it was connected by an electric cable. If only they could make an electric unit that didn't have to drag the battery onlong. As an add on, I run a diesel tractor and a three year old diesel Mercedes car.

Taxes on fuel in Europe is a lot different than in the U.S. and heavily distort the market. At least where I live, taxes are about the same on diesel vs. gasoline per gallon and are about 10-15% of the total as-purchased fuel price.

You can buy (K-1 heating fuel) kerosene over here at the pump at some out-of-the-way stations to use in space heaters and such. Kerosene is usually a little more expensive than diesel and quite a bit more expensive than gasoline. You can also buy Jet A (aviation kerosene) at the pump at many airstrips but it costs quite a bit more than K-1 kerosene per gallon.

The last tractors that could run on tractor fuel/distillate were made in the '50s. After that they ran on gasoline, diesel, or LP (HD-5 propane). Gasoline and LP went away in the '70s leaving only diesel.

 

[mike peyerl]

They still exist up to 34 hp. I have one w/540 PTO, FWD & Loader. Sure is handy.

What is it I would be interested

 

[5030]

I doubt it least for my ag operation. I need torque not horsepower.

 

[Hay Dude]

It was also noted in Fox Business news, and that is also a standard in something or other. Fox was light on how it works, but they assured us that an elite team of reptilian shape-shifters will be on call to shove any residual byproducts off edge of the flat earth, so the problem is handled. Remember, Winston Churchill said that if you read it on the internet, it must be true.

Personally, I'd be happy if this thing works only 10% as well as they claim, it is still going to make a huge difference in many, many ways. Think about all the moving parts in the fossil fuel ecosystem - miners, railroad cars, tankers, OPEC, pollution, politics, pipelines, refineries, and more. Many of them will become redundant and/or irrelevant. It is going to be an interesting ride.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

Listened to a guy talk about commercial fusion reactors coming soon. Said they are about the size of a tractor trailer. All thats needed is Lithium and water. has 10 to 1 energy output to input or better. Cheap & easy and it’s coming.

It will devastate the fossil fuels AND the “green energy” junk like solar panels & windmills.
It WILL cause an explosion in EV’s and they will finally be charged without fossil fuels!

No more transportation of fossil fuels, no more power plants, far fewer rail cars or tankers.

A new world! Hope its true

 

[sunandsand]

"Listened to a guy talk about commercial fusion reactors coming soon. Said they are about the size of a tractor trailer. All thats needed is Lithium and water. has 10 to 1 energy output to input or better. Cheap & easy and it’s coming."


We're not there yet, but today's news flash plus tomorrow's announcement (if it is correct) takes us lot closer.

If correct, it demonstrates that fusion DOES work - and that is probably the biggest milestone in the whole game.

If correct, it will result in an absolute tidal wave of money going into lots of companies and startups working on this. Some of them will get results, some won't, and some will be total scams (so be careful and know who is pitching for your money!)

I think it is too early to say what flavor or flavors of fusion reactors will work. We now know (tentatively) that fusion does work (but stay tuned for the "official" release) using lasers and deuterium.

It may be too early to say if the lithium plus water device works, but rest assured that whoever is working on it will be absolutely delighted by the news, and it will turn on the money faucet for their version - which may or may not work.

There are a number of other systems being developed as well. One is the Tokomak, which uses very strong magnetic fields to guide and channel the super-hot plasma (which would burn right through anything it contacted). Tokomaks are supposed to run continuously, the laser plus deuterium device is pulsed.



"It will devastate the fossil fuels AND the “green energy” junk like solar panels & windmills."

Agreed. Solar and windmills will still have a place in remote areas and similar. Solar takes very little maintenance (wash them off every couple of years), but windmills will probably be a dead issue. Expensive, high maintenance, complicated and nobody wants them around.


"It WILL cause an explosion in EV’s and they will finally be charged without fossil fuels!"

Correct!


"No more transportation of fossil fuels, no more power plants, far fewer rail cars or tankers.
A new world! Hope its true"

We will be seeing soon if this is all going to work out. I sure hope it does, because it will also take care of global warming, which takes care of sea level rise and a host of other problems caused by fossil fuels and carbon emissions.

While a huge amount of work and money has been required to get to this point, if in fact it DOES work, as the man said "You ain't seen nuthin' yet."

There will still be a market for fossil fuels, our tractors, airplanes, ships (although if the fusion plant can be made small enough, ships could be powered that way as well), but it will be nowhere near as vast as the fossil fuel market is today. Coal is done, end of story. OPEC is going to fade away for lack of demand (Break my heart, OK? See my tears?) and if the money faucet for the middle east's oil reserves gets turned off, there are going to be some huge political changes there when the "oil weapon" doesn't work any more.

Whoever gets this right is going to make Musk and Bezos look like paupers.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[Hay Dude]

Still using our 1958 JD530. Nice old GASOLINE AG tractor with power steering, live independent PTO, loader, and probably the nicest 3pt hitch ever. Quiet, starts right up, runs nice.

Tore the engine down at approx 12,000 hrs because I had the time and was sure it needed something. Everything within specs. Cleaned it up, did a ring and valve job and now has a few thousand more hours.
It seems to be working just fine.
Over the last 20 years I have replaced the tachometer, fuel filter, and cleaned out the carb...
Uh... come to think of it, the the tach was about 30 years ago & reupholstered the seat then too.
View attachment 774256View attachment 774256

Looks like a 70’s magazine ad picture for mens cologne lol
Old Spice.

 

[Hay Dude]

"Listened to a guy talk about commercial fusion reactors coming soon. Said they are about the size of a tractor trailer. All thats needed is Lithium and water. has 10 to 1 energy output to input or better. Cheap & easy and it’s coming."


We're not there yet, but today's news flash plus tomorrow's announcement (if it is correct) takes us lot closer.

If correct, it demonstrates that fusion DOES work - and that is probably the biggest milestone in the whole game.

If correct, it will result in an absolute tidal wave of money going into lots of companies and startups working on this. Some of them will get results, some won't, and some will be total scams (so be careful and know who is pitching for your money!)

I think it is too early to say what flavor or flavors of fusion reactors will work. We now know (tentatively) that fusion does work (but stay tuned for the "official" release) using lasers and deuterium.

It may be too early to say if the lithium plus water device works, but rest assured that whoever is working on it will be absolutely delighted by the news, and it will turn on the money faucet for their version - which may or may not work.

There are a number of other systems being developed as well. One is the Tokomak, which uses very strong magnetic fields to guide and channel the super-hot plasma (which would burn right through anything it contacted). Tokomaks are supposed to run continuously, the laser plus deuterium device is pulsed.



"It will devastate the fossil fuels AND the “green energy” junk like solar panels & windmills."

Agreed. Solar and windmills will still have a place in remote areas and similar. Solar takes very little maintenance (wash them off every couple of years), but windmills will probably be a dead issue. Expensive, high maintenance, complicated and nobody wants them around.


"It WILL cause an explosion in EV’s and they will finally be charged without fossil fuels!"

Correct!


"No more transportation of fossil fuels, no more power plants, far fewer rail cars or tankers.
A new world! Hope its true"

We will be seeing soon if this is all going to work out. I sure hope it does, because it will also take care of global warming, which takes care of sea level rise and a host of other problems caused by fossil fuels and carbon emissions.

While a huge amount of work and money has been required to get to this point, if in fact it DOES work, as the man said "You ain't seen nuthin' yet."

There will still be a market for fossil fuels, our tractors, airplanes, ships (although if the fusion plant can be made small enough, ships could be powered that way as well), but it will be nowhere near as vast as the fossil fuel market is today. Coal is done, end of story. OPEC is going to fade away for lack of demand (Break my heart, OK? See my tears?) and if the money faucet for the middle east's oil reserves gets turned off, there are going to be some huge political changes there when the "oil weapon" doesn't work any more.

Whoever gets this right is going to make Musk and Bezos look like paupers.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

Did I mention no spent fuel rods or waste products? And that the reactors could be as small as a tractor trailer? Even portable?

 

[Citydude]

"Listened to a guy talk about commercial fusion reactors coming soon. Said they are about the size of a tractor trailer. All thats needed is Lithium and water. has 10 to 1 energy output to input or better. Cheap & easy and it’s coming."


We're not there yet, but today's news flash plus tomorrow's announcement (if it is correct) takes us lot closer.

If correct, it demonstrates that fusion DOES work - and that is probably the biggest milestone in the whole game.

If correct, it will result in an absolute tidal wave of money going into lots of companies and startups working on this. Some of them will get results, some won't, and some will be total scams (so be careful and know who is pitching for your money!)

I think it is too early to say what flavor or flavors of fusion reactors will work. We now know (tentatively) that fusion does work (but stay tuned for the "official" release) using lasers and deuterium.

It may be too early to say if the lithium plus water device works, but rest assured that whoever is working on it will be absolutely delighted by the news, and it will turn on the money faucet for their version - which may or may not work.

There are a number of other systems being developed as well. One is the Tokomak, which uses very strong magnetic fields to guide and channel the super-hot plasma (which would burn right through anything it contacted). Tokomaks are supposed to run continuously, the laser plus deuterium device is pulsed.



"It will devastate the fossil fuels AND the “green energy” junk like solar panels & windmills."

Agreed. Solar and windmills will still have a place in remote areas and similar. Solar takes very little maintenance (wash them off every couple of years), but windmills will probably be a dead issue. Expensive, high maintenance, complicated and nobody wants them around.


"It WILL cause an explosion in EV’s and they will finally be charged without fossil fuels!"

Correct!


"No more transportation of fossil fuels, no more power plants, far fewer rail cars or tankers.
A new world! Hope its true"

We will be seeing soon if this is all going to work out. I sure hope it does, because it will also take care of global warming, which takes care of sea level rise and a host of other problems caused by fossil fuels and carbon emissions.

While a huge amount of work and money has been required to get to this point, if in fact it DOES work, as the man said "You ain't seen nuthin' yet."

There will still be a market for fossil fuels, our tractors, airplanes, ships (although if the fusion plant can be made small enough, ships could be powered that way as well), but it will be nowhere near as vast as the fossil fuel market is today. Coal is done, end of story. OPEC is going to fade away for lack of demand (Break my heart, OK? See my tears?) and if the money faucet for the middle east's oil reserves gets turned off, there are going to be some huge political changes there when the "oil weapon" doesn't work any more.

Whoever gets this right is going to make Musk and Bezos look like paupers.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

Happy days are here! Until the government steps in to do what they do best.

 

[cqaigy2]

Did I mention no spent fuel rods or waste products? And that the reactors could be as small as a tractor trailer? Even portable?

I get the no fuel rods, but no neutrons created during the process? Apparently if you bombard steel and such, it makes it radioactive and brittle. Maybe i should read the article, it might address that.

 

[Hay Dude]

I get the no fuel rods, but no neutrons created during the process? Apparently if you bombard steel and such, it makes it radioactive and brittle. Maybe i should read the article, it might address that.

It’s way above my pay grade, bro.
Youd have to be “Top Poster of the Month” to know everything

But seriously, it will change to world forever if we can generate electricity for so little cost. It will break people free of poverty. If we do it here in the US first, it will give us several years of a competitive edge. However, i think we have lost our competitive edge and expect that the world will probably develop it all together in a similar time frame. The Chinese steal all our R&D (or it get’s sold out from under us) so there’s that, too.

 

[sunandsand]

A respected member and frequent contributor to these forums has advised me that (and I am paraphrasing slightly) I am absolutely talking through my hat regarding the fusion discussion.

Flattery ;-)

(Well not exactly . . . )

There IS the possibility that I am completely wrong about this. As Yogi Berra once said "It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future."

At this moment, yes, a lot of this is speculation, but it is based on trends.

Trend: Technology advances very rapidly, and the rate of advance is increasing. Ten years ago, the "standard" light bulb was a 100 watt incandescent bulb, available everywhere. They're gone - first it was CFLs, which were an interim step, and now it is LEDs - which run cold, are much more efficient so use much less power, and last far longer. We'll see 100 watt incandescent light bulbs on eBay in the antique section.

The prices of solar cells have dropped 90% in just ten years. (I wish the prices of new tractors would follow that trend!)

Finland has some punitive gasoline taxes, other countries are looking at this too. Over half of all the new cars sold in Finland are electric.

It took 75 years to reach 90% market penetration for land line telephones. Cell phones surpassed that in five years - just about *everyone* has a cell phone.

Televisions - 32 inch flat screen color TV on sale at WalMart for fifty dollars - that's transistor radio prices.

Point is that technology, especially electronic technology, advances very, very rapidly.

Internal combustion engines are a mature technology. Tens of thousands of talented engineers have been working on them for over a century, and improvements are going to be incremental, not spectacular. All the "easy" stuff has been done, marginal improvements cost more and more to accomplish.

Electric cars are a much newer technology. Electric cars can be characterized as laptops with wheels. Tesla made the first economically successful electric cars, now all carmakers are jumping on the bandwagon. Ford's electric Mustang is now the second best selling electric car. Ford also has an electric F-150 pickup truck. (Ford, who put America on wheels with the model T, is moving to electric.) Jaguar has electric, Rolls Royce has announced their new electric car, Porsche has an electric supercar, Chevrolet has the Bolt and is about to release an electric Traverse, Cadillac has an electric luxury car, VW has a whole line of cars based on their common electric platform. These companies have tens of thousands of talented engineers working for them.

Trend: More than HALF of the population of the entire world now lives in cities, and more people move to cities every day. Cities are the ideal environment for electric cars - crowded, subject to pollution problems, many trips are short distances.

The "choke points" for electric cars have always been batteries, charging stations and the grid capacity to supply them, and of course cost.

Trend: Batteries are improving, charging stations are popping up, the power companies are installing more capacity daily (Florida Power and Light has some very large solar arrays in service with more coming) and vehicle costs are coming down. Audi has just announced a direct competitor to the Tesla model Y, better handling, better styling, better fit and finish, almost as good range, and ten thousand dollars cheaper. (The words "Audi" and "cheaper" are not usually found in the same sentence.)


If, and that is a big if, the announcement about fusion says "It works", the trend towards electric cars will continue and increase. The trend away from fossil fuels will also continue, because now we have found something better.

It is entirely possible that things will shake out differently, but based on the current trends, the crystal ball says fusion plus electric cars is the future, sell your coal mining stocks NOW and reduce your holdings in oil companies and their support businesses.

Gentlemen, place your bets.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[sunandsand]

It works.

Nuclear fusion just passed a major milestone: Generating more energy than used to create the reaction

The National Lab and Department of Energy announced a nuclear reaction that generated more energy than was required to power it -- a first for humankind.

www.cnbc.com

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida


(Personally, I really don't care what fuels my tractor or my cars or my airplane - gasoline, diesel, electric, pixie dust - as long as it does the job and doesn't break the bank.)

 

[Hilbilly]

It’s way above my pay grade, bro.
Youd have to be “Top Poster of the Month” to know everything

I almost spewed my coffee all over the computer screen.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[warrendeere]

"Emissions from diesels are not worse than the emissions from a gas engine, they are just different and more visible."

Here is what the experts say.

"Black carbon particles, found in diesel engine exhaust, are 3,200 times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide in the near-term and promote cardiovascular disease and lung cancer."

Cleaning Up Diesel Exhaust Improves Both Health & Climate

A new World Bank study summarizes a menu of technical and policy options already demonstrated to cut the health and climate risks from diesel emissions.

www.worldbank.org

Is Diesel Cleaner than Gasoline and If So, What Makes Diesel Cleaner?

Is diesel cleaner than gasoline would have been an odd question a few years ago. But now, with low sulfur diesel, it is legitimate.

rentar.com

"And, diesel cleaner in terms of the variety of emissions types it produces. Diesel also produces fewer highly-toxic emissions than gasoline. To another important question — is diesel cleaner with respect to the toxic byproducts generated during production, — again, the answer is “yes.”
By almost no measure is gasoline cleaner than gasoline. Gasoline engines produce more carbon dioxide than diesel engines. Gasoline produces far more hydrocarbon emissions both when combusted and over the course of its life-cycle. It produces ultrafine particulate matter because of the octane boosting additives it contains. And, gasoline produces large quantities of carbon monoxide. Diesel produces almost none."
"Diesel, by every measure except nitrogen oxides, is a cleaner fuel than gasoline."
Your argument once again is just dead wrong.

 

[warrendeere]

"Emissions from diesels are not worse than the emissions from a gas engine, they are just different and more visible."

Here is what the experts say.

"Black carbon particles, found in diesel engine exhaust, are 3,200 times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide in the near-term and promote cardiovascular disease and lung cancer."

Cleaning Up Diesel Exhaust Improves Both Health & Climate

A new World Bank study summarizes a menu of technical and policy options already demonstrated to cut the health and climate risks from diesel emissions.

www.worldbank.org

Plus, your source is 8 years old.

 

[harrydarwen]

gas be much better maintenance wise than diesel since the catalytic converters would be fire starters along with all the sensors on new gas engines.

Showbox jiofi.local.html tplinklogin​

 

[MHarryE]

Back in early 60’s Deere introduced 4020 and IH 806 in gas and diesel versions, both naturally aspirated. Hard to find gassers at auctions. They just weren’t up to the capabilities of the diesels - except for cold weather starts. I found an old 806 gas on dealer’s used lot last year and was tempted to pull the trigger on it but it would only be useful in temps below zero. The gassers are such dogs when it comes to field work.