Electrical wiring challenge

[hitekcountry]

You can see why I would want to min. the number of wires at 250 ft each. If I had to run 8 wires that would have been 1000 ft of #10.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I see no reason why it would not be legal.

The light fixture is polarized, it's not legal to switch between hot and neutral. Any sort of switched neutral is not code.

I do applaud your creativity though.

 

[BobRip]

If you are only running a few lights (say 200 watts on each switch, or about 2 amps) you would only have about 1.65 volts of drop on a 12 guage wire. (1.65 milliohms per foot X 500 feet X 2 amps = 1.65 volts). Even twice that would not be too much. So it looks to me like 12 guage would be used for lighting and 10 guage for the outlet. Of course you might want more ligthning. I don't know the size of the shed. You would have about 9 volts on the 10 guage wire at 18 amps (the highest continous load allowed on a 20 amp circuit. I would use a 15 amp breaker on the lighting circuit.

 

[Tig]

The light fixture is polarized, it's not legal to switch between hot and neutral. Any sort of switched neutral is not code.

I think you are right about that. You could have the light off and the wires to the bulb still "hot".

 

[kennyd]

Or to put it another way lets just say weæ±*e running through metal conduit that provides the ground.

Using the conduit as the ground would not pass code here in my area!

And I do not think your 4 conductor wiring method would either...

 

[MossRoad]

Oh and also no radio/remote control or internet connection or computer anything. Just straight wiring.

You could do it with three wires if you stepped into this century and used remotes. They would definately cost less than the additional wire wire, too.

 

[hitekcountry]

Using the conduit as the ground would not pass code here in my area!

And I do not think your 4 conductor wiring method would either...

I was just trying to avoid getting hung up on the ongoing discussion of grounding that can go on forever, maybe that's just not possible. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to stress the importance of understanding proper grounding, it's just for this discussion I hoped to not get sidetracked by it.

Now as to this wiring method meeting code or not I am quite interested. It was mentioned the light fixture is polarized I see that 410.23 speaks to that. Is there anywhere else in the code I can look? And "it's not legal to switch between hot and neutral. Any sort of switched neutral is not code." Where can I find that in the code? I couldn't find it, any help is appreciated. I can always learn something new from others. Thanks

 

[kenmac]

I don't have electrical code on hand. I'm not an electrician ,but I do install & repair HVAC & I have found folkes that have energized the netural. If RAT were here (I think he's an electrician) he could probably tell you where to find it .

 

[Inspector507]

And "it's not legal to switch between hot and neutral. Any sort of switched neutral is not code." Where can I find that in the code? I couldn't find it, any help is appreciated.

NEC® 404.2(A) and 200.11

 

[hitekcountry]

Inspector Thanks

So what we have is the least number of current carrying conductors to make it all work is 4 but does not meet code, and to meet code you need 6 conductors +GND.

TIG called it right all along.

 

[Travelover]

You could do it with three wires if you stepped into this century and used remotes. They would definately cost less than the additional wire wire, too.

I think the X10 controlers would save a ton of money given the price of copper these days. I have used these in my home for the past 15 years. They just plug in and receive signals through the wiring.

Home Automation Index : X10.com!

 

[MossRoad]

I think the X10 controlers would save a ton of money given the price of copper these days. I have used these in my home for the past 15 years. They just plug in and receive signals through the wiring.

Home Automation Index : X10.com!

Yep. Most of the lights in my house are on X10 controllers. I can control most lights in my house from the same remote control that runs my T.V. All of my holiday lighting is on there as well. My day goes like this...

5:00am the closet lights come on at 30% so my wife can see in the bedroom. The kitchen and basement lights come on at 5:10 at 30% so she can see her way to the basement to work out. At 5:50 my kid's aquarium lights start ramping up a bit more every 5 minutes to get them used to the lights. Living room side lights come on at 60%, too for me. At 7:00 the pool pump comes on and runs for a few hours. It runs several times thoughout the day. At 7:30 most lights turn off, except for the gecko cage... he needs light all day. Lights are on when we come home and go dim towards bed time, etc... They really work well for the price. There are newer controls that cost more but work even better as they can start dim, remember settings, etc...

We also have x10 floodlights. The nice thing about those is that they can be programmed so that if the floodlights on the back of the house get set off by the motion sensor, it sends a signal to all the other ones and they come on as well. No place for badguys to hide. They also adjust for sunrise/sunset throughout the year.

 

[hitekcountry]

I think the X10 controlers would save a ton of money given the price of copper these days. I have used these in my home for the past 15 years. They just plug in and receive signals through the wiring.

Home Automation Index : X10.com!

Thanks for the web page, I'd have to agree that looks like the better way to go.
Let me see if I understand this. The lighting fixture just has power connected to it P,N and G. with a receiving module at the light fixture. Then the switch has power connected to it P,N and G which it is only using as a signal path. Then because each receiving module has an individual address it can also be controlled by other controllers.

Few questions:
Are the receiving modules more like relays or solid state switching devices?
How many watts do the modules draw?
What is the limit in amps that these modules can switch?
Do they come in both 120v and 240v?

 

[Travelover]

There are several modules - some low current ones are solid state and can dim a light for instance. Higher amperage modules are a relay - just on and off.

Their power draw is fractions of an amp -they are solid state

Site does not specify amperage, but appliance module can run air conditioners, coffees pots, etc. so I'd say at least 1000 watts.

I don't think they are available for 220v.

 

[MikeD74T]

Don't underestimate your power needs only to have to run more wire later. Figure your greatest load & run 4 wires to a subpanel. Run another low voltage conduit & use relays to switch the lights. MikeD74t

 

[bones1]

Mossroad, what software are you running to control the x 10's?.Activehome.

 

[MossRoad]

Mossroad, what software are you running to control the x 10's?.Activehome.

Yep. I'm still running the original Active Home on an old 486 running Win95. The nice thing is, I fire up the PC once or twice a year or whenever I want to make a change like add or remove a timer, then set up the times on the Active Home software. Then I download the timers to the cm11a controller and shut the PC off. That's it.

Here's a link to Smarthome.com. X10 Activehome Kit with Computer Interface. They still sell that original kit. Mine came with some add on stuff like a couple lamp and appliance modules. If I was getting into it again, today, I'd check out the Insteon products. Buy INSTEON-Compatible Home Automation Products at Smarthome

Make no mistake... some X10 things are cheaply made. But they work as advertised. The cheapest lamp modules, for instance, bring the lamp on at full volume each time you address it. Then you can dim it from there. More expensive modules can bring items on at a predetermined level or up from zero. That is a nice feature, but costs more. There are many companies that make X10 compatible stuff.

For the original poster's scenario, a light inside a shed and a light outside a shed to be controlled from the shed or the house, here's what I'd do.

Replace the two light switches in the shed with two of these $13 dollar switches:
Wall Switch Module - WS467

In the house I would use one of these $13 controllers:
Mini Controller (Black) - PHC01B

$40 bucks and you're done.

If you don't want a table top controller like the one I linked to, you could use one of these in a wallbox:
KeypadLinc 6郵10 Compatible Transmitter
It's only $30 bucks and has LEDs that let you know the shed lights are on, too. It will control up to 4 seperate X10 addresses.

The possiblities are endless. Cheap to start with, add on to the system as you feel like it.