Electrical / romex mess

   / Electrical / romex mess #41  
We have a light on a pole in our driveway. Its in a center circle bordered by pavers. I want to replace the light with a water feature.

I turned power off, removed the light and pole, and found two romex lines. One was still hot (don't ask!) They are about 2 feet below current grade, and about 3 feet below what the new grade will be.

I need to move these lines as the new water feature would be sitting right on top of them. I wish they were long enough to get to an electrical box on the edge of the circle, but they are not nearly long enough. And I still need power out there for the new pump.

I know you are not supposed to put romex in conduit. Nor splice wires and have electric junction boxes underground. But I'm stumped on what else to do?

Any ideas?
View attachment 701068
I am not an electrician and with that said. Isn’t the reason for Romex in conduit because of the heat generating in the enclosed space? Couldn’t you just us a over sized piece of conduit? Also that is direct burial cable and if I was going under a gravel or concrete driveway I would definitely put it in conduit. That way it could easily be replaced. And again I am not an electrician just an average DIY guy.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #42  
I am not an electrician and with that said. Isn’t the reason for Romex in conduit because of the heat generating in the enclosed space? Couldn’t you just us a over sized piece of conduit? Also that is direct burial cable and if I was going under a gravel or concrete driveway I would definitely put it in conduit. That way it could easily be replaced. And again I am not an electrician just an average DIY guy.
Also would like to add I have seen where someone spliced a cable in the ground and over the years the ground movement separated the cables.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #43  
If it truly is Romex and it's in the ground, you should abandon it and run new - real UF (underground feeder) or THWN in conduit.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess
  • Thread Starter
#44  
I have mistakenly referred to it as romex. Partly because at first I was not sure, then due to my ignorance that romex and UF are very different things. Apologies for any confusion. It is UF cable.

Replacing it back to the underside of the house would involve breaking up my paver entry, custom paver patio, and custom masonry decorative rock walls. Probably a $50,000 project to change out a UF cable. Not a consideration.

This all started when I tore up my driveway to replace it. Re-doing the center circle is part of that project. Since the UF cable might become a future issue, I will add a new electrical conduit under the new driveway out to a side planter. That way, if I ever had to abandon the UF cable I could get power out there with less difficulty and without breaking hardscape.

Thank you all for contributing ...
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #46  
just getting set up to add a spa and my electrician mentioned that uf cable should be direct buried and that putting it in conduit is actually more harmful. something about heat build up and possible condensation problems but I'm no electrician. I know just enough to be dangerous.

my plan is to run conduit just at the transitions where the cable comes out of the ground and into the house.

this is of course North of the border where it gets cold and our frost line is sometimes 4-6 ft deep depending on how much snow is on the ground before the heavy freezing gets here.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #47  
We have a light on a pole in our driveway. Its in a center circle bordered by pavers. I want to replace the light with a water feature.

I turned power off, removed the light and pole, and found two romex lines. One was still hot (don't ask!) They are about 2 feet below current grade, and about 3 feet below what the new grade will be.

I need to move these lines as the new water feature would be sitting right on top of them. I wish they were long enough to get to an electrical box on the edge of the circle, but they are not nearly long enough. And I still need power out there for the new pump.

I know you are not supposed to put romex in conduit. Nor splice wires and have electric junction boxes underground. But I'm stumped on what else to do?

Any ideas?
View attachment 701068
First, it does not look like what you have is Underground Feeder wire.
Next, I ran hundreds of feet of UF cable inside conduit with no problem in my barn. I ran 300' of 12-2 UF cable inside of 2in black plastic pipe with no problem....it's been 25 years....works good.

So...if the problem is that you have regular 14-2 or 12-2 indoor electrical cable...I would replace it.

Depending how long the run is, try to give it a yank and see if it will move at all.
If it does.....solder some UF feeder cable to the end of the existing cable and run a new line.

If it doesn't, look at digging up the cable at the edge of your existing circle.....and see if it pulls when you dig it up...
If so, same as above...replace with UF cable the underground section under the circle....and dig a trench to do the rest.

Sometimes the easiest thing is to call "Dig-safe" and have them sniff the exsisting line and other utility lines and dig a whole new trench and run UF cable inside of 2inch well plastic pipe.

The probem you have will get worse as you are planning to put a water fountain above suspect pipe...water wicking into the indoor wiring that is buried can short out the wire....
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #48  
just getting set up to add a spa and my electrician mentioned that uf cable should be direct buried and that putting it in conduit is actually more harmful. something about heat build up and possible condensation problems but I'm no electrician. I know just enough to be dangerous.

my plan is to run conduit just at the transitions where the cable comes out of the ground and into the house.

this is of course North of the border where it gets cold and our frost line is sometimes 4-6 ft deep depending on how much snow is on the ground before the heavy freezing gets here.
Condensation almost never happens in a buried pipe that has UF cable in it as long as it is sealed at both ends.....I'm talking from real experience. Also, the conduit provides extra protection from rocks and varmits..
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #49  
I don't know about your local codes but yes you can (and should) run your romex through PVC conduit. Check on the size but I would probably use 2 inch PVC for a single romex cable. What you are NOT supposed to do is run romex in steel conduit that is used to run residential or commercial building circuits.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #50  
Probably best to call your local electrical contractor, that wire does not even look like direct bury Romex.
If he can read the markings on the wire, if it says "NMW" it's direct burial rated (Canada) but in the US it will be called UF instead. Depending on the supplier, it might have *both* labels on them. Standard household romex (NMD and NM) is not burial rated.

There are splicing kits rated for direct burial. But for peace of mind, I'd suggest getting an electrician to install them because they have to be installed precisely right to work, and if you're not already familiar with them, the instructions alone may be inadequate. If it isn't NMW/UF cable, an electrician may refuse to do it due to code.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #51  
Probably best to call your local electrical contractor, that wire does not even look like direct bury Romex.
It is not UF wire! Ut is therefore not rated for ground contact nor UV exposure. Thus it needs to be replaced. Aside from NEC violations, it is a major major major safety issue.
Since, you have several issues involved—2 wires, needs to be longer and below grade junctions are another major major major safety issue, and unsafe wire was used, you need to replace it from at least an above ground level outdoor junction box to the location where you want the electrical access with UF wire in the gauge size to match the breaker it is on in the electrical panel.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess
  • Thread Starter
#52  
It is not UF wire! ... needs to be longer ... below grade junctions
There have been many posts so it would be understandable if maybe you missed a few.

There will be no below grade junctions. The wire is currently in the center of an 18' diameter circle. If I dig back to the edge of the circle, I will have at least 10+ feet of exposed wire. Since it's buried only 2 feet, I'll have plenty of wire to bring it up into a box with no splicing.

I examined the wire and did not find any markings. It does look *exactly* like the UF wire picture that was posted earlier.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #53  
Both wires feed into the hole from the same direction.

If expose more wire, I will eventually get to the edge of the circle. I could put a concrete electrical box there, and turn the wire upward into it. No splice. Not ideal, but simply using what was original-- and with no splice. Maybe slip a conduit over the part that turns upward before backfill?

One other oddity. Why two wires? Since there was a light out there, I knew of one wire, and it is switched from the house. As far as I know, it is the only remaining wire after I demolished and rewired the entire house two years ago. Why there is a second wire in the hole is a mystery.

I'm going to clean the jacket on the romex and learn what it is.
My best guess with the limited information available is that whoever put that in ran 1 ‘romex’ as a hot power from the breaker then a second ‘romex’ run from a switch yo control the light. A few years ago this was an acceptable practice even by NEC. There were potential problems with this and as such most electricians did not like this. One biggie was that on the switch runs, the white (neutral wire) became a hot wire when the switch circuit was completed. By NEC both ends of the white and any junctions that allowed access to that white wire were to be marked with tape of an known hot wire color (typically black, most common, or red next most common). The reality was this marking seldom happened. Later some would tie into that white wire believing it to be a neutral and put power to often the neutral wire in that entire electrical panel.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #54  
If the ground is wrapped, it’s probably uf direct burial wire. But who’s to say for sure. Traditionally UF cable has very heavy insulation that’s hard to cut. But I have seen some out there with thinner outside insulation but still listed uf cable.
If the ground is also wrapped it probably is UF wire. With a bit of wiping the exterior sheathing you should be able to find a UF marking on the sheathing. Your photo of exterior sheathing removed looked dis not look like UF. Check carefully if not marked UF, I would replace to a point it is above ground level.
you are by NEC allowed to run ‘romex’ in conduit for short runs (10 ft or less) this includes UF for the purposes of a junction box above ground level to under ground. Heat which is a major enemy of electricity is why you do not want it double shielded.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess
  • Thread Starter
#55  
One biggie was that on the switch runs, the white (neutral wire) became a hot wire when the switch circuit was completed.
I tested both UF cables yesterday. One is always hot and one is switched. I only tested each UF cable independently between blk, wht, and ground. No testing from to the other.

Do I understand your post correctly... the always-hot UF cable should normally have voltage only on the black lead and not the white, but if I turn on the switch, (heating up the other UF cable) the neutral/white wire on the "always hot" UF cable would then show voltage? And it would feed that voltage on the neutral/white wire back to the panel?
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #56  
There have been many posts so it would be understandable if maybe you missed a few.

There will be no below grade junctions. The wire is currently in the center of an 18' diameter circle. If I dig back to the edge of the circle, I will have at least 10+ feet of exposed wire. Since it's buried only 2 feet, I'll have plenty of wire to bring it up into a box with no splicing.

I examined the wire and did not find any markings. It does look *exactly* like the UF wire picture that was posted earlier.
If it is not marked UF, any inspector (including a fire or insurance inspector) will put in their findings it is non UF wire. You would like then have issues collecting on your homeowners insurance for any claim. One of the problems is it could run and overload to the electrical panel and involve the entire home.
Replace to an above ground junction box or to panel and switch box with UF rated wire.
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #57  
More info: I believe it is UF romex-- there is no paper and it looks just like the pictured one. I can excavate the exposed wire back to the inner wall, then turn it up into a (new) box with no splicing.

Both romex wires are connected to the same breaker. One is switched (the former light circuit) and one is always hot. Both are connected to the same breaker-- a 15amp Square D arc fault breaker.
If they are both connected to the same breaker, why does that breaker not cut off power to 2nd??????

2 circuits connected to the same breaker is not to code, not safe, and leads me to believe it was a DIY'er
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #58  
The guy shaved down the wires so he could squeeze them into the terminal on the beaker.

I was going to say, most breakers are okay with having two wires in them, shaving the wire down so it will fit in the breaker is a No-No though. Better to use a pigtail if your wire is too big to fit into the breaker.

I tested both UF cables yesterday. One is always hot and one is switched. I only tested each UF cable independently between blk, wht, and ground. No testing from to the other.

Do I understand your post correctly... the always-hot UF cable should normally have voltage only on the black lead and not the white, but if I turn on the switch, (heating up the other UF cable) the neutral/white wire on the "always hot" UF cable would then show voltage? And it would feed that voltage on the neutral/white wire back to the panel?
It depends on how it is set up, if the wire out of the panel goes into the switch in the house and then the switched and unswitched wires both go from there to the outside, white should be neutral on both and black should be hot on both.

There should be zero volts ac (or close to it) from either white to ground and 110-130 volts ac from black to ground or white.

Aaron Z
 
   / Electrical / romex mess #59  
   / Electrical / romex mess
  • Thread Starter
#60  
If they are both connected to the same breaker, why does that breaker not cut off power to 2nd??????
I never saw anyone post anything that said this. Certainly not me.
 

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