Electrical Problem with 425

[BobRip]

You might want to consider soldered cables and corrosion protectors. You can get the latter at Autozone, Kragen, etc. They sell both sprays and felt disks. I have used both, and both help. I have found Del City to be a great supplier of cables, and electrical items, like heat shrink terminals and splices with built in adhesive to seal the connection against water, acid, life... I like to fix things once.

Bouncing around does a pretty good job of spilling electrolyte, which will corrode all sorts of things. You can try washing the battery periodically with a paste of bicarb to reduce the effects of spilled acid. Extra heat doesn't help either.

All the best,

Peter

From the discussion here, I would not bet that the cables have actually failed, although it can happen.

 

[ponytug]

Dear Bob,

Excellent point, I was looking at Dale's prior posts that made it sound as if the cables corroded to the point where the performance was spotty and he needed to replace them. Granted, not quite tlb's problem by the sound of it. (bad solenoid or starter?)

Dale: If you think you have a loose ground issue, you might want to run extra ground lines from the negative battery ground point on the engine to the rear chasis, and the front chasis. It falls into the it never hurts category, and may improve the performance of your lights.

If you think that you have a leak to ground from the positive terminal, I'd hook a continuity tester to the + terminal and probe around looking for it. Bear in mind salts on the top of batteries can be pretty conductive, and can run batteries down just by having them there.

All the best,

Peter

From the discussion here, I would not bet that the cables have actually failed, although it can happen.

 

[scarg]

Bobrip- I didn't get any electrical information with my 2004 model 422. Could you send me a copy? steve@auxprosys.com

Thanks,

Steve

 

[BobRip]

Bobrip- I didn't get any electrical information with my 2004 model 422. Could you send me a copy? steve@auxprosys.com

Thanks,

Steve

Here is it.

 

[J_J]

JJ, Tim,
Thanks for the feedback. I will try this later today after work.

JJ,
The picture you attached looks correct.

I am attaching pictures I took this morning. I checked the connections and they seemed tight but will remove them and re-attach. Is there any way to bypass the solenoid so I can at least start the engine?

Thanks,
-Tim

Tim, Just curious of you ever figured out your starting problem.

 

[tlb]

JJ,
We've had unusually cold weather and rain so have not been able to do anything yet. My dog (PT425) sleeps outside cause I don't have a shed or barn.
-Tim

 

[tlb]

JJ,
I tried to spin the starter as you suggested by connecting my truck battery to the 425 battery and shorting together the two lugs on the solenoid. I used a phillips head screwdriver and jammed it across the lugs.

After the inital sparking, I could hear what sounded like the starter spinning but it was not engaging the engine flywheel, just free-spinning. I tried it a 2nd and 3rd time with the same result. At this point the screwdriver started glowing red and welding itself to the lugs so I stopped.

Does this sound like a solenoid or starter problem?

Thanks,
-Tim

 

[BobRip]

JJ,
I tried to spin the starter as you suggested by connecting my truck battery to the 425 battery and shorting together the two lugs on the solenoid. I used a phillips head screwdriver and jammed it across the lugs.

After the inital sparking, I could hear what sounded like the starter spinning but it was not engaging the engine flywheel, just free-spinning. I tried it a 2nd and 3rd time with the same result. At this point the screwdriver started glowing red and welding itself to the lugs so I stopped.

Does this sound like a solenoid or starter problem?

Thanks,
-Tim

Since the starter is spinning, but not engaging into the engine, it sounds like the solenoid is bad.

 

[J_J]

JJ,
I tried to spin the starter as you suggested by connecting my truck battery to the 425 battery and shorting together the two lugs on the solenoid. I used a phillips head screwdriver and jammed it across the lugs.

After the inital sparking, I could hear what sounded like the starter spinning but it was not engaging the engine flywheel, just free-spinning. I tried it a 2nd and 3rd time with the same result. At this point the screwdriver started glowing red and welding itself to the lugs so I stopped.

Does this sound like a solenoid or starter problem?

Thanks,
-Tim

You did good, you proved that the starter is good. Your solenoid is bad, because it will not throw the pinion gear into the starter ring gear. Get a new solenoid. I went on Ebay and found lots of starters for the Kohler, at different prices. If you see one you like, ask the seller some questions. I am bidding on a new starter that has the solenoid that I need.

 

[tlb]

JJ, BobRip,
Replaced the starter & solenoid this morning with new one. Turned the key and it did exactly as before........nothing. Any more suggestions would be appreciated.
-Tim

 

[DHS]

Tim,

Occasionally, I have experienced the same starting problem you have. Sometimes wiggling the wires and cables near the starter allow it to start. I try to stretch and wiggle the wires while turning the key. This of course does not fix the problem. So every six to nine months I must clean the battery connections and about every three years I need to replace both battery cables. This seems to solve my problems for another six to nine months. I believe I have a very small ground somewhere in my system that appears to corrode the battery connections and deteriorate the cables to a point that allows enough current for the lights but not the starter. I installed a disconnect on my battery terminal. However, I do not always take the time to open it when I am through using the PT and with it installed I continue to have battery terminal and cable issues. At one point I was convinced the proble was the starter. I had my original starter that Robin replaced due to starting issues. I installed the old starter and had the same problem.

I also replaced the main fuse holder located by the starter. I am a bit fuzzy on the exact circumstances but I do recall it was corroded and impeded current flow.

Try the easy things first.

Dale

Tim,

My earlier post was not clear. Try replacing your battery cables and clean the battery posts. When I thought the problem was my starter, replaceing the cables solved my problem.

Dale

Dale

 

[J_J]

JJ, BobRip,
Replaced the starter & solenoid this morning with new one. Turned the key and it did exactly as before........nothing. Any more suggestions would be appreciated.
-Tim

Tim

1. Did you check the starter before installation?
2. Did you ever check your ignition switch out?
3.Take a jumper cable and put black lead to ground, and touch the red lead to large terminal on the solenoid closest to the starter. starter should run.
4. Hook up volt meter to the start terminal, it should have a push on lead. and you should have 12v when you turn the key to start.
5. If the solenoid on the new unit just clicks, check the battery.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Could this be as simple as a ground issue?

 

[BobRip]

Tim

1. Did you check the starter before installation?
2. Did you ever check your ignition switch out?
3.Take a jumper cable and put black lead to ground, and touch the red lead to large terminal on the solenoid closest to the starter. starter should run.
4. Hook up volt meter to the start terminal, it should have a push on lead. and you should have 12v when you turn the key to start.
5. If the solenoid on the new unit just clicks, check the battery.

What J_J said. I think he also meant to say connect the other end of the jumper cables to the battery or maybe that was obvious. I wish I could come over and give you a hand, but it's a little far to drive. I forgot have you checked the battery voltage while trying to start? It should stay above 10 volts. If not the battery is bad or not charged enough. Since it did not jump start from another battery, it is probably not the battery, although sometimes a cell or two can be shorted and prevent jump starting.

 

[J_J]

Could this be as simple as a ground issue?

Yes it could, but Tim said he took his truck battery and connected it to the starter. If that starter worked off the machine, then it should work installed. A volt meter should tell the story. I wish that I was there to help. I have done the starter thing many times. I have used Kohler engines for over 20 years. If the voltage on the battery doesn't drop when started, then something is wrong.

 

[J_J]

Tim,

You said it was doing the same thing. Is the click you hear coming from the starter solenoid or the gas solenoid. You should be a to touch the solenoid when you turn the key, or maybe not. Long arms are required. However a starter solenoid testing switch could prove activation.

 

[tlb]

JJ, Dale,
I connected my jumper cables from the truck battery with truck running to the starter post closest to the starter. The starter engaged the flywheel.

JJ,
I don't know if there is supposed to be a voltage on the plug in wire at the back of the solenoid. I measured with a VM, the voltage at this wire, with the wire unplugged from the solenoid. With the key in the "on" position or "start" position the voltage was zero.
-Tim

 

[tlb]

JJ,
Attached are voltages I measured at the keyswitch. The first is with the key in the "on" position. The second is with the key in the "start" position.

The click I hear when turning the key to the "on" position sound like it is the fuel switch.

-Tim

 

[BobRip]

JJ, Dale,
I connected my jumper cables from the truck battery with truck running to the starter post closest to the starter. The starter engaged the flywheel.

JJ,
I don't know if there is supposed to be a voltage on the plug in wire at the back of the solenoid. I measured with a VM, the voltage at this wire, with the wire unplugged from the solenoid. With the key in the "on" position or "start" position the voltage was zero.
-Tim

The starter is OK.

The plug wire on the back of the solenoid should have 12 volts when cranking. It supplies power to the solenoid coil.

I believe (but am not absolutely sure) that the key switch leads are as follows:

B - Battery - Should be 12 volts in the off position as well. Check this.
S - Goes to PTO swith and then starter. Check continuity to the plug wire on the back of the starter.
Terminal on the far right of the switch - Goes to the lights and hour meter.

If S truly goes through the PTO to the starter then jumper battery voltage to it. The starter should work. If this happens then your Key switch is bad.

Edit: I believe that the above is correct. I found the Robin diagram in their engine manual. I have attached a picture of it.

 

[tlb]

BobRip, JJ,
Find the problem..........bad keyswitch. After downloading the Kohler manual and studying it and BobRips electrical diagram, I made some more measurements. The keyswitch does not make contact in the "start" position.

I pulled off the switch and used some jumper wires to short the appropriate points together. See the attached diagram. Once I did this it started right up.

One thing I don't understand (I think the Kohler electrical diagram is not correct for PT425) is if jumper J2 is not connected then the starter & solenoid works but the engine will not start, like not fire to the plugs and the lights do not work. With jumper J2 connected the engine starts right up and the lights work. Once the engine is running I can disconnect J2 and the engine keeps running but the lights do not work. What is J2 doing?

My PTmanual says the keyswitch is a Robin E341x1. Where can I get one (besides PT)?

Thanks for all the inputs from everyone.
-Tim