Electrical Problem with 425

[tlb]

Does anyone have a schematic for a 2002 425? Tractor ran fine last week. Today, it would not turn over or even engage the starter solenoid. Lights work fine. I can hear the PTO engage when I flip the PTO switch.

When I turn the key I hear a click but it is not the starter solenoid. Oil level is OK also. I checked two fuses that I found, a 10amp plug-in type (red) and a 30amp cylindrical type fuse going to the starter. Continuity was OK on each fuse, however both have cracks in the cases. Any ideas?

Thanks,
-Tim

 

[BobRip]

Does anyone have a schematic for a 2002 425? Tractor ran fine last week. Today, it would not turn over or even engage the starter solenoid. Lights work fine. I can hear the PTO engage when I flip the PTO switch.

When I turn the key I hear a click but it is not the starter solenoid. Oil level is OK also. I checked two fuses that I found, a 10amp plug-in type (red) and a 30amp cylindrical type fuse going to the starter. Continuity was OK on each fuse, however both have cracks in the cases. Any ideas?

Thanks,
-Tim

Is the PTO switch off? It disables starting when on.

Do the headlights dim when you try to start. If they dim a whole lot (or go out) and then recover quickly when you turn the key away from start, then you probably have a loose connection at or near the batteries.

If the headlights dim when you try to start and then recover slowly, then the battery is weak. If you can jump start it, then most likely the battery is bad. The battery is 5 years old, right? That is a good life for a battery. It may be time to replace.

I have a schematic for the 422 from 2000.

 

[J_J]

Does anyone have a schematic for a 2002 425? Tractor ran fine last week. Today, it would not turn over or even engage the starter solenoid. Lights work fine. I can hear the PTO engage when I flip the PTO switch.

When I turn the key I hear a click but it is not the starter solenoid. Oil level is OK also. I checked two fuses that I found, a 10amp plug-in type (red) and a 30amp cylindrical type fuse going to the starter. Continuity was OK on each fuse, however both have cracks in the cases. Any ideas?

Thanks,
-Tim

Take a jumper cable, and go from the battery to the 12v lug on the starter, and if it turns the starter, the solenoid is probably bad. I had a similar problem on a 25 hp Kohler engine. You could hear the solenoid click, but not enough energy to pull the solenoid. Switched out the solenoid and fixed everything. Also check out all the grounding points, and battery terminals.

 

[tlb]

BobRip,
The lights dim when the key is turned all the way and instantly go back to full when the key is turned to off. The PTO is off. The battery is about 6 months old.

I replaced the 2 fuses but no difference. Will check battery connection and if that does not work, try JJ's suggestion.

-Tim

 

[tlb]

OK, I checked the lights again. When the key is switched fully-on the lights go completely off and there is a faint click coming from either the starter solenoid or the PTO solenoid (PTO switch is off). The lights come back on instantly when the key is switched to the partially-on position.

I connected my truck battery to the 425 battery with the truck idling. Repeated the above procedure and got the same results. Check jumper cable by briefly shorting + to - and got the arc so cables seem ok.

Next, connected my truck battery, with the truck idling, to the 425 starter solenoid terminals. Nothing happened. Tried key if off and on positions. Next, connected 425 battery directly to starter solenoid with the same results as above.

Questions:
Would a bad PTO switch cause symptoms like this?
Would a bad starter solenoid cause symptoms like this?

Thanks for any help.
-Tim

 

[KMA]

I believe JJ's suggestion was to connect the 425's battery directly to the starter. Your description suggests you are connecting the battery to the starter solenoid. By going directly to the starter itself, you take the solenoid (and pretty much everthing else) out of the picture. For example, if the starter turns with 12V, then there's a good chance the solenoid is bad. I've had them go on two other machines, so it is not uncommon. Luckily, they are a cheap and simple fix.

Good luck!

 

[DHS]

Tim,

Occasionally, I have experienced the same starting problem you have. Sometimes wiggling the wires and cables near the starter allow it to start. I try to stretch and wiggle the wires while turning the key. This of course does not fix the problem. So every six to nine months I must clean the battery connections and about every three years I need to replace both battery cables. This seems to solve my problems for another six to nine months. I believe I have a very small ground somewhere in my system that appears to corrode the battery connections and deteriorate the cables to a point that allows enough current for the lights but not the starter. I installed a disconnect on my battery terminal. However, I do not always take the time to open it when I am through using the PT and with it installed I continue to have battery terminal and cable issues. At one point I was convinced the proble was the starter. I had my original starter that Robin replaced due to starting issues. I installed the old starter and had the same problem.

I also replaced the main fuse holder located by the starter. I am a bit fuzzy on the exact circumstances but I do recall it was corroded and impeded current flow.

Try the easy things first.

Dale

 

[BobRip]

Tim,

Occasionally, I have experienced the same starting problem you have. Sometimes wiggling the wires and cables near the starter allow it to start. I try to stretch and wiggle the wires while turning the key. This of course does not fix the problem. So every six to nine months I must clean the battery connections and about every three years I need to replace both battery cables. This seems to solve my problems for another six to nine months. I believe I have a very small ground somewhere in my system that appears to corrode the battery connections and deteriorate the cables to a point that allows enough current for the lights but not the starter. I installed a disconnect on my battery terminal. However, I do not always take the time to open it when I am through using the PT and with it installed I continue to have battery terminal and cable issues. At one point I was convinced the proble was the starter. I had my original starter that Robin replaced due to starting issues. I installed the old starter and had the same problem.

I also replaced the main fuse holder located by the starter. I am a bit fuzzy on the exact circumstances but I do recall it was corroded and impeded current flow.

Try the easy things first.

Dale

Dale, you might try using a multimeter to check the leakage current from the battery. Disconnect the positive lead to the battery. With all loads turned off put the multimeter between the battery positive terminal and the positive lead. Measure the current. If should be less than 10 mA. Pull fuses and disconnect leads until it disappears. Then trace that circuit that is causing the leakage. I take it that the longer you let then machine sit, the more the battery is run down. This is a good indication that there is leakage. Be careful not to overload the multimeter current range or you will blow a fuse in the meter. If you see no leakage current then this is not your problem.
From your description it sounds more like a loose connection. That can be traced by looking for a voltage drop across wires, switches, fuses, etc. when you have current flowing through it. I hope this helps.

Oh, I have had two fuse holders fail on my 422. The connections came loose inside the holder. Try wiggling the fuse holders, particularly the one on the main wire to the starter and see if the problem goes away or comes back.

 

[J_J]

Kevin, If that is a Kohler engine, 22 or 25hp, the starter solenoid runs about $60.00, and the complete starter runs about $160.00.

 

[tlb]

JJ,
Excuse me for being ignorant, but when I look at the starter/solenoid I see where the solenoid has 2 connections (bolts with nuts). One looks like it is connected to the starter housing (gnd) and the other is connected to a cable with the 30amp fuse.

If there is another wire going to the starter it must be underneath where I cannot see it. It is a tight fit where the starter/solenoid is placed and I cannot get my hand between the tractor body and the engine let alone a jumper cable.

Am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks,
-Tim

 

[Gravy]

OK, I checked the lights again. When the key is switched fully-on the lights go completely off and there is a faint click coming from either the starter solenoid or the PTO solenoid (PTO switch is off). The lights come back on instantly when the key is switched to the partially-on position.

I connected my truck battery to the 425 battery with the truck idling. Repeated the above procedure and got the same results. Check jumper cable by briefly shorting + to - and got the arc so cables seem ok

Dale,

Unless your battery cables and jumper cables get hot when you try to start it, I'd bet my lunch money that you have a bad battery cable connection.

Try checking your voltage drop across the connections while trying to start the engine. For example, poke one voltmeter lead into the center of a battery post, and the other into the cable clamp. Have somebody turn the key. If the voltmeter registers more than a small fraction of a volt, the connection is bad.

Do that from battery post to clamp on both sides, from the other end to the starter terminal and grounds respectively, and from one end to the other of each cable. It's common to have bad connections at the battery, but I've seen plenty of cables that don't really conduct from on end to the other.

Good luck!

Gravy

 

[BobRip]

OK, I checked the lights again. When the key is switched fully-on the lights go completely off and there is a faint click coming from either the starter solenoid or the PTO solenoid (PTO switch is off). The lights come back on instantly when the key is switched to the partially-on position. MY ANSWER IN CAPS - BOBRIP - THIS INDICATES THAT THE STARTER SOLENOID IS PULLING CURRENT, BUT THERE IS A BAD CONNECTION SOMEWHERE (MOST LIKELY) OR THE SOLENOID IS SHORTED (LESS LIKELY)

I connected my truck battery to the 425 battery with the truck idling. Repeated the above procedure and got the same results. Check jumper cable by briefly shorting + to - and got the arc so cables seem ok. YOUR BATTERY IS PROBABLY OK

Next, connected my truck battery, with the truck idling, to the 425 starter solenoid terminals. Nothing happened. Tried key if off and on positions. Next, connected 425 battery directly to starter solenoid with the same results as above. DID YOU CONNECT THE NEGATIVE JUMPER CABLE FROM THE NEGATIVE ON THE BATTERY TO THE ENGINE GROUND? TRU THIS FIRST AND THEN TRY CONNECTING IT TO THE CASE OR A BOLT ON THE CASE OF THE STARTER. THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT THE GROUND WIRE OR CONNECTORS BETWEEN THE BATTERY AND ENGINE IS BAD. JUMPER AROUNB THIS WITH YOUR JUMPER CABLES. REMOVE THE PT GROUND TERMINAL FROM THE BATTERY FIRST.

Questions:
Would a bad PTO switch cause symptoms like this? NO
Would a bad starter solenoid cause symptoms like this? ONLY IF THE SOLENOID IS SHORTED. I THINK SINCE IT ALMOST CLICKS IT IS NOT SHORTED. SINCE THE LIGHTS GO OUT, SOME CURRENT IS BEING PULLED BY THE STARTER SOLENOID AND THERE IS LIKELY A BAD CONNECTION SOMEWHERE. BETWEEN THE BATTERY AND THE ENGINE.

Thanks for any help.
-Tim

MY ANSWERS IN CAPS.

 

[J_J]

JJ,
Excuse me for being ignorant, but when I look at the starter/solenoid I see where the solenoid has 2 connections (bolts with nuts). One looks like it is connected to the starter housing (gnd) and the other is connected to a cable with the 30amp fuse.

If there is another wire going to the starter it must be underneath where I cannot see it. It is a tight fit where the starter/solenoid is placed and I cannot get my hand between the tractor body and the engine let alone a jumper cable.

Am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks,
-Tim

Before we go any further on this, does your starter look like this? If it does, there are two lugs on the bottom of the solenoid. the one closest to the body of the starter is the test point for the starter only. The other lead should be the red lead from the battery.

 

[J_J]

JJ,
Excuse me for being ignorant, but when I look at the starter/solenoid I see where the solenoid has 2 connections (bolts with nuts). One looks like it is connected to the starter housing (gnd) and the other is connected to a cable with the 30amp fuse.

If there is another wire going to the starter it must be underneath where I cannot see it. It is a tight fit where the starter/solenoid is placed and I cannot get my hand between the tractor body and the engine let alone a jumper cable.

Am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks,
-Tim

That wire you said was ground, is not ground, it is the 12v lead directly to the starter. The ground for the starter is obtained by bolting the starter on.

There is a bar or ring of copper inside the solenoid that when activated, slams the bar against two terminals and causes the starter to run, and the starter pinion is pushed up into the starter ring at the same time, turning the engine.

 

[Marks481]

90% of the time, problems like this are caused by corrosion on the positive leads or in the wire leading to the solenoid. 4% of the time it is a failed solenoid. 1% of the time it is a failed starter.

I know it seems absurd; but trust me. Take off the positive lead off your battery and clean it and the terminal well (NOTE: always wise to remove the negative lead first to avoid shorting tools accidently to ground). Next, there is a common post where the battery POS wire connects with all the loads (including the wire to the solenoid). Take this apart and clean the faces of the terminals with sandpaper.

If this doesn't help, the start messing with jumpers from the POS lead of the battery to the solenoid. I had starter problems identical to this because the lead from the key to the solenoid was corroded, and when it was hot (only) it wouldn't start because the temperature raised the resistance of th lead enough that not enough voltage was getting through to allow the solenoid to click over. Frustrating to troubleshoot, since ENGINE HOT=NOT AT HOME generally.

 

[tlb]

JJ, Tim,
Thanks for the feedback. I will try this later today after work.

JJ,
The picture you attached looks correct.

I am attaching pictures I took this morning. I checked the connections and they seemed tight but will remove them and re-attach. Is there any way to bypass the solenoid so I can at least start the engine?

Thanks,
-Tim

 

[J_J]

JJ, Tim,
Thanks for the feedback. I will try this later today after work.

JJ,
The picture you attached looks correct.

I am attaching pictures I took this morning. I checked the connections and they seemed tight but will remove them and re-attach. Is there any way to bypass the solenoid so I can at least start the engine?

Thanks,
-Tim

If the starter is good, and you have checked it like I said, You can pull the solenoid off, and activate the starter pinion lever as you touch the 12v cable to the starter lead. If you have never done this before, it is tricky, and you are in close quarters. My advise would be to pull the starter and take it to your local Kohler dealer , or Auto-Zone, Discount Auto or something similar and they will test the starter. I have ordered a new solenoid for my starter. It is on a starter that doesn't fit my Kohler, but the solenoid will fit several models. The complete starter is less that getting just a solenoid. But if you have to , just go and get a new solenoid, after confirming that the starter is good. I took a solenoid off a spare engine, and put my Dixie Chopper back in operation . My old solenoid would click, but would not pull the plunger in to active the starter gear and start the engine. Sometimes when I am in a hurry, I bypass all the testing, and just go and get the whole unit, and test it later. If you have a business, all parts and repairs are charged off as expenses. I hope that I have not misled you in any way. Here is a better picture of my starter.

 

[DHS]

Bobrip, Gravy,

Thanks for your comments. I have my electrical problems under control. I read my original message and I was not as clear as I thought.

I intended to tell Tim that I need to clean my battery terminals about every six months and I replace the battery cables every 3 to 4 years. For some reason the terminals and cables corrode rapidly on my PT.

Dale

 

[BobRip]

Bobrip, Gravy,

Thanks for your comments. I have my electrical problems under control. I read my original message and I was not as clear as I thought.

I intended to tell Tim that I need to clean my battery terminals about every six months and I replace the battery cables every 3 to 4 years. For some reason the terminals and cables corrode rapidly on my PT.

Dale

It is really hard to write clearly all of the time. Sometimes I see other's post, and I go, "Wow, that is much better advice than I gave".

 

[ponytug]

You might want to consider soldered cables and corrosion protectors. You can get the latter at Autozone, Kragen, etc. They sell both sprays and felt disks. I have used both, and both help. I have found Del City to be a great supplier of cables, and electrical items, like heat shrink terminals and splices with built in adhesive to seal the connection against water, acid, life... I like to fix things once.

Bouncing around does a pretty good job of spilling electrolyte, which will corrode all sorts of things. You can try washing the battery periodically with a paste of bicarb to reduce the effects of spilled acid. Extra heat doesn't help either. I have a similar problem on my truck.

All the best,

Peter

Bobrip, Gravy,

Thanks for your comments. I have my electrical problems under control. I read my original message and I was not as clear as I thought.

I intended to tell Tim that I need to clean my battery terminals about every six months and I replace the battery cables every 3 to 4 years. For some reason the terminals and cables corrode rapidly on my PT.

Dale