E-15 fuel in your area?

[Username Taken]

Nearly all of the last 36 posts are needless spinning of wheels and distractions from the main underlying truth & problem:

• The govt once had what seemed like a well intentioned thrust to put ethanol in gasoline. Renewable fuels. More supply.
• Within 10 years or less from starting the experiment, every technically informed person in the world knew several things:
  • That ethanol was causing major grief with small engines, chain saws, boat motors, etc. as well as reduced efficiency.
  • That ethanol was putting upward pressure on food costs (meat, anything with corn in it, etc.)
  • That , worst of all, it takes (total picture) more fossil fuel to make a gallon of ethanol tainted gas than it does to leave it alone and make plain old gasoline (!!!) so the underlying advertised purpose was hurt rather than aided. FAILURE.
  • That the govt will never ever admit making a major mistake and rescind it.
  • That the only people making very much off the process are companies mixing the gas (I read around $150M/year) and big AG companies that are about as much like farmers as you and I are like cats.
  • And in my current frame of mind I add, "Duh!!"

About the only 'grief' ethanol was causing in automobiles was in some of the cheaper plastic intake manifolds made by generic motors. Especially Cadillac. And that took tens of thousands of miles to show up.

When ethanol is made, they remove the liquids from it. They don't want anything else. Pieces of corn tend to get clogged in today's fuel injectors. What's left over is turned into animal feed. Net loss -- Zero.

Bullet point number 3 is news to me. And likely to the rest of the world.

#4 is on target. And it's a shame that government is so blind, so uncaring about the needs of The People that they have earned the distrust.

Yes, Big Ag is making a butt-load of money on it. So, what else is new? They're the biggest Welfare Queens in the Country.

 

[Username Taken]

Add to that, even if you can purchase "pure" gasoline it still isn't that. If you want an eye opener try running your tank down low and pour in a jug of non-ethanol fuel from VP (C20 90 octane), CAM2, etc. I'm not talking about their high octane stuff. The fuel at the pump is crap is comparison. My point being that our fuels could be of much better quality than they are. But its been a frog-in-the-boiling-water thing as fuels have increasingly less BTUs per gallon.

For giggles, I ran 3 tanks of 'pure' gasoline in my truck one time. WaWa sells it right on the corner. Right out of the pump. It's more money, of course. No difference. Zero. Not a bit. Not even a little bit

People get confused over this 'octane' stuff. Octane is a gasoline's resistance to pre-ignition (knocking). Nothing else. In fact, much of the higher octane gasolines are LESS efficient and provide LESS power than lower octane gas

What is octane?

Have you ever wondered what those numbers — 87, 89, and 93 — on the pump itself mean? They measure octane and they're critically important. Here's why.

www.fuelfreedom.org

 

[JWR]

Gasoline has to have additives in it. Otherwise, your car engine won't run right at all.

If they're not using ethanol, they're using something else. Sometimes that 'something' is worse, far worse, for your engine than ethanol. Which, I can't quite understand why ethanol is so bad. whatev

Anyway, where I like to spend my Summers in Michigan, pure alcohol at gas pumps (at least I think it's pure or close to it) is very common. Maybe because there's a bunch of big ethanol plants in the area.

So I tried some in my Eco-Friendly F-150 with a Coyote V8. Ran like a striped-assed ape. Fast. But, hoo-boy, did it ever go through some fuel. Thought I had a leak!

I heard somewhere that high content alcohol fuel and turbochargers don't get along well. Don't know. If I replace my Cummins with an EcoBeast, I'll look into it. With today's technology, about the time you figure it out, it's already obsolete. So I don't bother anymore.

Username -- you are very far off base. Don't know a kinder way to say it. 1) "pure alcohol at the pumps or nearly so" is a myth or just simply very wrong info. No such thing exists. 2) "A bunch of big ethanol plants in the area" is nonsense. The is the Feds and it is nationwide. 3) "Gasoline has to have additives in it" is also ... well I'll just say that ethanol is NOT an additive. And where did you get the idea that those other additives are worse than ethanol? Ill-informed speculation. 4) If you can't understand ethanol being so bad, talk to any small engine mechanic, any boat owner, any chain saw shop,...

 

[JWR]

About the only 'grief' ethanol was causing in automobiles was in some of the cheaper plastic intake manifolds made by generic motors. Especially Cadillac. And that took tens of thousands of miles to show up.

When ethanol is made, they remove the liquids from it. They don't want anything else. Pieces of corn tend to get clogged in today's fuel injectors. What's left over is turned into animal feed. Net loss -- Zero.

Bullet point number 3 is news to me. And likely to the rest of the world.

#4 is on target. And it's a shame that government is so blind, so uncaring about the needs of The People that they have earned the distrust.

Yes, Big Ag is making a butt-load of money on it. So, what else is new? They're the biggest Welfare Queens in the Country.

You are either joking -- kidding us -- or ... I have to just let your post represent you as-is.

 

[Paul in TN]

For giggles, I ran 3 tanks of 'pure' gasoline in my truck one time. WaWa sells it right on the corner. Right out of the pump. It's more money, of course. No difference. Zero. Not a bit. Not even a little bit

People get confused over this 'octane' stuff. Octane is a gasoline's resistance to pre-ignition (knocking). Nothing else. In fact, much of the higher octane gasolines are LESS efficient and provide LESS power than lower octane gas

What is octane?

Have you ever wondered what those numbers — 87, 89, and 93 — on the pump itself mean? They measure octane and they're critically important. Here's why.

www.fuelfreedom.org

In the last three years I have run nothing but ethanol free gas in my grass cutters and reduced consumption by about 10%. So the price difference is not there, at least for me.

 

[cqaigy2]

This is false because a lot of plastics and rubber components were never designed to be compatible, there was a transition period and items (mostly small engines, can’t think of a automobile engine) had to be upgraded to compatible components. Not much room for debate on that one

That is false because i've only had problems with modern devices and their cheaply made rubber and plastic parts. My older 80s era chainsaw and weed eater haven't had any problems with the gas i buy here.

 

[Username Taken]

Musta have been a figment of my imagination --

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x881872cfcefc2b31%3A0xee1f4107da1b0199!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN9kMLRrgDsihvMtBTwRyRv0g6pWFtlOK4FUFrb%3Dw266-h200-k-no!5sethanol%20plant%20lake%20odessa%20mich%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCgIgAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipN9kMLRrgDsihvMtBTwRyRv0g6pWFtlOK4FUFrb&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1v5rTrvb3AhW5QzABHRm_BOAQoip6BAhREAM

Reviews:
"Best prices for E85 in midmichigan area and its fresh straight from the source!"

 

[Username Taken]

That is false because i've only had problems with modern devices and their cheaply made rubber and plastic parts. My older 80s era chainsaw and weed eater haven't had any problems with the gas i buy here.

If you've ever had a 'performance' car you know that one way to make it run better is to remove the casting flash from intake runners and intake manifolds. Not a cheap proposition, especially when you get into pushing sand-infused clay through the runners to smooth them out. Very common on aircraft engines. It was called 'Extrude Hone' and I don't know if they're still around or not. Lost interest in it.

Some car manufacturers jumped the gun with their perfectly smooth plastic intake manifolds and used materials that wouldn't stand up to the Ethanol in the gasoline. Cadillac was really a bad one. So were a lot of other generic motors cars. I should know because we replaced a butt-load of them. Some of the smaller Fords had problems too, but not as bad. I think now just aout everybody has plastic intakes. Don't know. Lost interest.

Ethanol had some growing pains, no doubt about it. But it does increase Octane rating by a lot. Pure ethanol has an Octane rating Rating of around 119, IIRC (I'm doing this from memory). And RBOB gasoline just won't burn in your car. The Octane rating is too low. The engine would sound like it was about to blow up if you tried to run it. It probably would blow up in short order.

So it has to be blended with something. Ethyl worked but it had some bad side effects. Ethanol is not perfect but it works really well.

I know a guy that drives a taxi part-time because -- He's nuts, IMHO. Contracts with the VA to carry Vets around, especially to the eye clinic in Miami. But he does it. He's got an old Crown Vic with 700 thousand miles on it and he's only ever run regular pump gas. Never done a thing to the engine. Had to put two transmissions in it, brakes, tires, bearings, etc. But the engine has never been touched. Never.

Maybe I should tell him abut that ethanol-free gasoline. He might make his engine last a little longer.

 

[JRH02]

For giggles, I ran 3 tanks of 'pure' gasoline in my truck one time. WaWa sells it right on the corner. Right out of the pump. It's more money, of course. No difference. Zero. Not a bit. Not even a little bit

People get confused over this 'octane' stuff. Octane is a gasoline's resistance to pre-ignition (knocking). Nothing else. In fact, much of the higher octane gasolines are LESS efficient and provide LESS power than lower octane gas

What is octane?

Have you ever wondered what those numbers — 87, 89, and 93 — on the pump itself mean? They measure octane and they're critically important. Here's why.

www.fuelfreedom.org

I specifically pointed out that is is not an octane thing. My point is that even pure gasoline is not the same as non-ethanol pump gasoline. And no, running non-ethanol fuel is not going to turn your rig into a rocket ship. But BTUs are BTUs and directly equate to power, efficiency and fuel mileage. Maybe not enough to offset the cost difference but that is a whole different conversation.

What the heck is WaWa?

I had already posted my previous reply but now I'll bring it up. You can buy VP 2 cycle fuel premixed pretty easy now. Try a few fills with that in your saw and tell me you don't notice a difference, and maybe a big difference. It'll run cooler to.

 

[Username Taken]

 

[Mcdust]

I’m not sure what price fuel would have to reach to make it cost effective to use ethanol. I do know it uses a lot of land, a lot of fertilizer, a lot of machines, and a lot of FUEL to produce so with the cost of all those inputs rising…I’m not a huge fan.

Plus ethanol and gasoline can't be mixed at the refinery so here in the North East we bring in tanker loads of gas and train loads of ethanol to be mixed at the terminal prior to distribution. Therefore trainloads of explosive ethanol are running through densely populated urban areas, one of those being eastern Mass. where non ethanol gas is not available at the pump. This is just as ridiculous as the years and years it took to get ultra poisonous mbte out of gas. Big money, big politics!

 

[Username Taken]

Plus ethanol and gasoline can't be mixed at the refinery so here in the North East we bring in tanker loads of gas and train loads of ethanol to be mixed at the terminal prior to distribution. Therefore trainloads of explosive ethanol are running through densely populated urban areas, one of those being eastern Mass. where non ethanol gas is not available at the pump. This is just as ridiculous as the years and years it took to get ultra poisonous mbte out of gas. Big money, big politics!

Too bad somebody keeps shutting down the pipelines.

MTBE

Ethanol is more gooder. And, in a pinch, you can drink it

 

[sea2summit]

Too bad somebody keeps shutting down the pipelines.

MTBE

Ethanol is more gooder. And, in a pinch, you can drink it

I’m pretty sure ethanol used for fuel is denatured and definitely not safe to drink…

 

[JRH02]

If you've ever had a 'performance' car you know that one way to make it run better is to remove the casting flash from intake runners and intake manifolds. Not a cheap proposition, especially when you get into pushing sand-infused clay through the runners to smooth them out. Very common on aircraft engines. It was called 'Extrude Hone' and I don't know if they're still around or not. Lost interest in it.

Some car manufacturers jumped the gun with their perfectly smooth plastic intake manifolds and used materials that wouldn't stand up to the Ethanol in the gasoline. Cadillac was really a bad one. So were a lot of other generic motors cars. I should know because we replaced a butt-load of them. Some of the smaller Fords had problems too, but not as bad. I think now just aout everybody has plastic intakes. Don't know. Lost interest.

Ethanol had some growing pains, no doubt about it. But it does increase Octane rating by a lot. Pure ethanol has an Octane rating Rating of around 119, IIRC (I'm doing this from memory). And RBOB gasoline just won't burn in your car. The Octane rating is too low. The engine would sound like it was about to blow up if you tried to run it. It probably would blow up in short order.

So it has to be blended with something. Ethyl worked but it had some bad side effects. Ethanol is not perfect but it works really well.

I know a guy that drives a taxi part-time because -- He's nuts, IMHO. Contracts with the VA to carry Vets around, especially to the eye clinic in Miami. But he does it. He's got an old Crown Vic with 700 thousand miles on it and he's only ever run regular pump gas. Never done a thing to the engine. Had to put two transmissions in it, brakes, tires, bearings, etc. But the engine has never been touched. Never.

Maybe I should tell him abut that ethanol-free gasoline. He might make his engine last a little longer.

Well, doesn't this get to be a fun conversation. This will not be resolved in a forum tossing the experience of a brother's sister's cousin who has not done this and experienced that. Still to this day I've not lost interest in technology. I still experiment but much more cautiously.

The principles of the past are still true today. Garbage in, garbage out. Hardware or software or elected officials. Oops, thread drift.

 

[sea2summit]

That is false because i've only had problems with modern devices and their cheaply made rubber and plastic parts. My older 80s era chainsaw and weed eater haven't had any problems with the gas i buy here.

So cheaply made ones have problems? So I’m still correct? Or I’m incorrect because it’s only cheap ones that have problems?

 

[Oaktree]

MTBE

Ethanol is more gooder.

I was wondering when someone would bring up this point. MTBE was nasty stuff, good riddance.

 

[Tony H]

I attempted to find more info on E10 blended fuel yrs ago trying to figure out why my mpgs dropped 10-20% when I started using E10 still haven't found a valid compelling argument. I can't understand why blending fuel will reduce oil consumption for gasoline when you just need to burn more of it to travel the same distance. I won't even get started on all the small engine problems, that in a smaller scale the average middle class person has to deal with out of pocket.

Adding alcohol to had is like adding more bread to meatloaf It will fill your belly but just doesn't help anything. It literally takes the same amount of GAS to get from point A to point B. 10% ethanol reduces your MPG by 10%. I know, I still own three cars that I have owned since before the corn additive scam

 

[3930dave]

Phase separation, if you haven't seen it before:

Phase Separation in Ethanol Gasoline: The Hidden Killer in your Gas Station

A couple of paragraphs before the end of the article:

"Proposed increases in the ethanol blend levels will further elevate a stations’ risk to phase separation. These risks include damage to the petroleum infrastructure, damage to customer vehicles and station brand equity, and the potential to be left with unsaleable fuel."

Marine is the worst, next High Humidity/High Temperature swing environments (where I live)...... if you live in AZ, likely a Don't Care.....

Rgds, D.

 

[cqaigy2]

So cheaply made ones have problems? So I’m still correct? Or I’m incorrect because it’s only cheap ones that have problems?

Neither. The old stuff you said didn't work, actually does and with ethanol in the fuel.

 

[MossRoad]

I’m pretty sure ethanol used for fuel is denatured and definitely not safe to drink…

Kinda, sorta. When it comes out of the process, it's drinkable. All alcohol consumed by humans is ethanol (except desperate alcoholics). But before it leaves the plant, it has to be denatured to make it unfit for human consumption.