Best Way To Remove This Tree

[dmccarty]

Just as a comment, Eddie's method is a slight variation on the technique described on pages 203-5 of Operating Techniques for the Tractor-Loader-Backhoe by Gary Ober, 2000 edition. I seriously doubt that any unsafe practice would be recommended in this book, which is used for training by the International Union of Operating Engineers.

The only difference is that Ober illustrates cutting roots on the side toward the backhoe before pushing. Clearly Eddie's technique allows for taking out larger trees.

As an aside, I highly recommend this book. It is clear, easy to understand, and well illustrated with both pictures and line drawings. I got my copy from Builder's Book, Inc. Bookstore for $34.20 plus $8 shipping. Amazon had used copies for about twice the price.

I can't wait until the ground dries out enough to try this on a couple of trees that "have to go" on my land.

P.S. I am not meaning to say that Eddie didn't develop this technique on his own, or that he deserves less credit for bringing it to our attention. Only that it is recognized as a "standard" BH operation, and has been safety checked by professional operators.

CurlyDave,

I pulled out my copy of this book and reread the land clearing section again as well. The concern I have with cutting both sides of the tree is that it makes the tree less stable which could be dangerous. With cutting the roots on the tractor side per The Book, that should keep the tree from falling back on the tractor. BUT, it sure seems like it would be harder to push the tree down.

The Book recommends pushing the tree down without cutting roots. The larger trees require digging.

I was suprised that Obeds 46 BH pushed the tree over. I thought my 48 BH would have trouble pushing it down.

After reading this thread, The Book, and doing some thinking, I think what I'll try is to push it down per The Book. Don't think that will work on most trees with my BH but I'll try. Then dig out on the tractor side and push Per The Book. When that does not work I'll dig on both sides as least resort.

I have not had to take down any trees, Fran, Floyd and no name storms have taken down enough firewood for us to last years. I do have one tree that got bent over like a horse shoe a few years ago. Then a new storm broke the trunk, the tree was very much alive and well, about 20 feet up the trunk. My guess is that the tree was 60 feet tall and 20 inches on the stump. I'll try to push this one over with the BH.

Word of caution though. I had a tree that was maybe 12 inches on the stump and 10 feet long. It had fallen and when I was cutting it eventually fell UP. I move it with the tractor but it was wobling around pretty good. Not real safe.

I'm seriously thinking about putting in an area for a small apple/peach/nut orchard and a good big garden. Unfortunately the area is mainly wooded so this technique should work well.

The Operating Techniques for the Tractor-Loader-Backhoe is very good for anyone who has a tractor and an FEL. Obviously its good if you have a BH as well.

 

[EddieWalker]

Obed,

I'm not too exited about how close together those two trees are. From the picture, it looks like they are too close together to get the bucket in between them. It also looks like the further one has a nice lean to it down your road.

I would prefer to lay it down on the road, but sometimes that's not always an option. In this case, and based on just this one picture, I think it should go over into the trees away from the road.

Dig your trench for the fall side on the oposite side of the road. Sice this is two trees, dit it deeper and longer. You really can't dig it too big, but there is a point where it wont matter anymore.

Dig your second trench on your push side, along the side of the road. Again, go a little deeper and longer than the last one.

Try to push it over. Two trees will hold each other up and make it tougher. If it won't push over, cut the next two trenches in.

I've read where your bucket isn't able to under cut the roots, so I understand that, but get whatever you can out from under them.

You still might have trouble pushing them over. One will always fall easier than the other. They will both go together to a point, but you might have to change trees until you find the weaker one. Push that one over and the other will go real easy.

Go slow, take out plenty of dirt and be careful.

Eddie

 

[DDT]

However, before I can tackle my next tree, I need to re-set the electric pole It's only 2 feet in the ground



Maybe codes are different here but we set fence post at 3'. a pole that tall would be alot deeper here??

 

[CurlyDave]

After reading this thread, The Book, and doing some thinking, I think what I'll try is to push it down per The Book. Don't think that will work on most trees with my BH but I'll try. Then dig out on the tractor side and push Per The Book. When that does not work I'll dig on both sides as least resort.

Maybe Eddie can give us some advice here.

Somehow I think it might be safer to dig first, then push. My reasoning is that if I break some roots by pushing, I can't see which ones, and having the tree come over while digging is clearly less safe than while pushing.

Now, I have a FOPS, and a fair amount of reach on my hoe, which makes me more comfortable. With only a ROPS, I would be a lot more comfortable with digging around a "virgin" tree than a stressed one.

Your already broken-off tree is going to be harder to push over than a full tree. A lot of the weight is gone.

P.S. This is probably the wrong thread, but one of the many reasons I got a 110 TLB rather than a L39 is that when I went to the dealership they had a 110 out back which looked like it had grass growing on the canopy. It turns out someone had rolled it down an embankment and it really was grass up there.

It had turned over twice on the way down, and the ROPS looked pretty good to me. There was no obvious bending of the steel pillars, although the plastic top was cracked a little. The guy's wife made him sell it after that.

 

[CurlyDave]

Maybe codes are different here but we set fence post at 3'. a pole that tall would be alot deeper here??

After thinking about that pole overnight, I am coming to believe it might be OK as is. Your fence posts don't have the 2x4 braces the pole has.

With a free-standing pole, the earth must resist bending forces and the pole has to be burried deeper. With the braces, they will resist the bending forces, and all the dirt has to do is keep the base from moving.

If I had the pole, I might add to the bracing if I was really worried, but I don't think re-setting it is necessary. I might lag-bolt a piece of pressure-treat crossways at ground level to prevent the weight of the pole from causing it to sink into the ground, and maybe add two more braces, but I see poles like that on construction sites all the time & they last for years.

I have seen them not burried at all, just with the base bolted to a plastic outhouse...

 

[dmccarty]

Somehow I think it might be safer to dig first, then push. My reasoning is that if I break some roots by pushing, I can't see which ones, and having the tree come over while digging is clearly less safe than while pushing.

Now, I have a FOPS, and a fair amount of reach on my hoe, which makes me more comfortable. With only a ROPS, I would be a lot more comfortable with digging around a "virgin" tree than a stressed one.

Your already broken-off tree is going to be harder to push over than a full tree. A lot of the weight is gone.

I think my broken off tree is too big to go without digging. The part remaining has a bend that is heading downhill. But I don't think that will be enough to get it to move. Also its a sweetgum and they have tap roots. I'm going to give the tree a budge with the BH and watch it laugh at me. Then I'll dig.

With my 48 BH pushing without digging is only going to work on 3-6 inch tress. Maybe. I just don't think it has the ooppmh. But the book aid to push first. So I'll try to see if it possible with little trees.

I have spent anywhere from 5 minutes to at least 8 hours digging up a single stump. If I can use the BH to get the tree down that will a huge timesafer. Unfortunately I still have lots of 24-36 inch stumps that I'll dig up. They seem to get easier as they age and rot.

When I bought the 4700 the 110 was not out yet. I would have considered it for sure. I wish I had a FOPS. I know I asked the dealer but they only thing we discussed was the armor kit which was not going to do me much good. I had a limb/tree fall on me in a very strange accident. I was not hurt. It was so wierd that I don't thing a FOPS would have caught it.

Ya really have to be careful out there....

Later,
Dan

 

[JBX]

Hi Obed,
This may already have been suggested but anyway, get a "spotter".
Get someone to watch you, the tree, the tractor, and anything else while taking down the big tree.
They should be away from the action far enough to see everything yet close enough to get your attention if something is not right. Get them a referee whistle or air horn and to use it if they see trouble.

For you the tractor or chain saw operator-
Keep your escape route in mind. As you are focused on the task, listen for noises that don't sound right, or for someone shouting, or for a warning.
If something goes wrong, where will you go?
Be quick of mind and fleet of feet as needed.

Saws and tractors can be replaced, you are one of a kind.
Sincerely,
JBX

 

[rdln]

cut it down, dig out stump.

 

[Defective]

Obed,

When I dig the "fall" side trench, I usually have the tractor sitting about where the tree will eventually land. If I feel the need to get right under the roots & I can't reach from there, I'll move over & get it diagonally after the trench is as deep & wide as I want it. Strangely enough, it's possible to be too CLOSE to what you're digging. Setting the tractor a little further back may allow you to get under the root ball better.

I noticed the size of your bucket. I'd say it's the ideal size for the job. I can't really tell from your pictures, does that bucket have teeth or a cutting edge? I've found that the perfect bucket for tree work is about 10" wide with a cutting edge. This makes it easy to chop through roots on the way down. If the edge of the bucked is even moderately sharp, you can whittle away at some pretty big roots & save a lot of digging.

On your second practice tree(s):

Looks like two trees to me.

Can you get the tractor in behind those trees? (opposite side from the road)

If so, I'd drop them directly across the road. Dig the "fall" side trench for both trees, then work on the smaller trunk first. You'll know if they both need to go together by the time you finish digging up the edge of the road.

Hehehe...I'm writing as I read again. Eddie & I have opposite ideas as to which way those two trees need to go. Either direction is right. Just depends on what you want to do after they're down. On the road makes it easier to dispose of them. In the bush makes it easier to ignore them.

JBX,

Good call on having a spotter.

Judging by the action shots, I suspect he has that half way covered. I'd recommend getting a couple of those little aerosol horns for the spotter to carry. Tractors & chainsaws are noisy.

 

[Obed]

How are you planning to re-set that pole?

Are you going to take all of the electrical panels, conduit, weatherhead, etc. off first, or do you have a way to re-set it with them still on?

CurlyDave,
I intend to pull the pole out of the ground with the electrical gear still attached to the pole. We'll see how it goes. I might have to improvise some as I go.

I plan to drive up to the side of the pole until my FEL is touching the pole. I'll adjust the FEL bucket so that the top and bottom edges of the FEL are both touching the side of the pole. I'll run a chain around the bucket and around the pole at the top and bottom of the bucket. I'll wrap the chain a couple times around the bottom of the pole so the chain can get a grip on the pole. Hopefully I'll be able to lift the pole out of the ground with the FEL. If that doesn't work, then I might do something similar by wrapping the chain to the backhoe bucket and tying the chain to the pole. Then curling the bucket might lift the pole out of the ground.

The big question I have is - can I wrap the chain around the pole without damaging the boxes and conduit on the pole? I'll find out tomorrow. If it looks questionable, then I might use tow straps instead or in combination with the chain. Or I might remove the panels first then pull the post.

After I pull up the pole, I'll lay it on the ground. I'm going to make sure I redig the hole down as deep as I can get it. I suspect the soil may be 3 ft deep before I hit solid rock. When I know how deep the hole will be, I'm going to unscrew the electrical panel and boxes from the pole and reposition them higher on the pole. The exact placement on the pole will be determined by the depth of the hole. I will need to disconnect the conduit where it connects to the meter box and cut the plastic conduit using a hacksaw a little shorter based on the new meter box placement. Then I'll reconnect the conduit to the top of the meter box.

I'll put about 4 inches of gravel in the bottom of the hole for drainage. Then, with the pole rebuilt, I'll lift it back into the hole using a chain and either my FEL or my backhoe. I'll tamp in an 80# bag of Quikcrete then pour in a gallon of water. Then repeat with 2 more bags of Quickcrete. I've read that you should pour your concrete no higher than 4 inches below ground level. If the concrete around the pole reaches ground level or higher it can cause the pole to rot at the top of the concrete from water collecting there. My dad built a wood fence and filled the holes with concrete heaping above the ground level and his posts have been rotting where the post meets the concrete. The top 4 to 6 inches of the hole should be dirt, not concrete, to allow water to drain away from the pole. Also, the bottom of the hole should be larger in diameter than the top of the hole like an inverted cone. This helps the pole to resist freezing and thawing that tries to push the pole upward and out of the ground. It also drains water away from the hole.

 

[Obed]

Recommend that electricity be disconnected first before using. Safety and all that.

BTDT,
My wife has been lurking on this thread and says people must think that I'm going to kill myself somehow based on my descriptions of what I'm doing.

I failed to mention that the power company has not run wire to the electric pole yet. The pole and breaker box are not live.

Also, my description of dropping the tree sounded like the tree fell much before I expected it meaning I could have gotten hurt. Actually, I had pushed really hard on the tree until it was leaning significantly (my pictures didn't show this lean). When I pulled my bucket away from the tree the roots gave way and it fell. After I had pushed on the tree and made it to lean, there was no way I was going to position myself under the leaning tree. So I really wasn't in danger. However, my wife said my description made it sound like the tree was standing straight up and then fell over on its own. If that were the case, then that would be dangerous. But it didn't happen that way.

Thanks for the safety reminder.

That was quite an elaborate drawing you made of the post-puller. Looks pretty good. If I were doing much pole pulling, that tool could be very useful. Since this is a one-time deal, I'll just have to make do with what I already have.
Obed

 

[jk96]

One thing to be careful off is small trees. The have been the most dangerous. The trunk on sapplings and trees that are just a few inches thick are still very flexible. If you do anything wrong, they will wip arond and come right into the cab. I've had more busted knuckles from two inch thick pines than any construction job I've been on. Even down, they wip around and sanke there way into the cab, or parts of the tractor until they find a weak point, then break it off.

Same goes for small limbs on big trees when cutting up after felling. Learned that the hard way. I had a dozer clear some trees for a new road. I started cutting a 12-14" diameter tree into smaller pieces so I could move it. When I cut one of the smaller 4-5" diameter limbs it whipped forward after cutting a good 24" and straight into my shin. Cut and bruised it pretty good. If I had been standing a foot closer I would have had a broken leg. When the dozier pushed aside, it obviosly pulled the limb back and placed it under pressure. I usually laugh at others with no common sense but in this case the possiblity did not even occur to me.

jk

 

[Defective]

Obed,

I would like to suggest that you leave that conduit at its current length. If need be, either extend the top of the pole or just replace it with a longer one. (maybe one of your practice trees and a bit of fancy carving ) You will regret any lost height at the weatherhead. Ever see what happens when your ROPS catches an overhead power line?

Don't even try to pull it with the parts attached. They won't take any compression from your chains or strap. (short story...but embarrassing... )

 

[BrianW]

Patiently waiting to see more pictures of your progress on that tree!

 

[MarkV]

Good thread whether you prefer the chainsaw method or the backhoe method. I’ve been dropping trees with the backhoe method for years. For me it works better than trying to remove the stumps and I feel as safe as or safer than when I use the chainsaw method. Also I agree that some trees are better attacked with the chainsaw when the situation doesn’t allow proper placement of the backhoe.

With safety being the main concern advocates of both methods have, I am surprise that safety gear has not been mentioned. Falling dead limbs are part of removing trees with either method. A logger’s hard hat should be standard equipment for either method. I am sure that the chainsaw crowd is also wearing saw chaps around a running chainsaw. Now it would seem to me that the three main danger issues are the tree falling the wrong way, falling limbs and getting cut by the chainsaw. Without safety gear I would rather eliminate the “cut by chainsaw” possibility by sitting on the backhoe. Personally I use all of the above as well as sit under the FOPS of my TLB. Just not as daring as I use to be.

If anyone is not familiar with logging helmets and chainsaw chaps take a look a www.Bailey-online.com . A search in the Safety forum will also bring up some interesting stories that might make you consider the purchase of safety gear.

Obed, practice on a couple of other trees before you take on that double stump tree. It looks to me like your room to maneuver is limited and that those two are not going to want to fall down the road as easily.

MarkV

 

[norsker]

If anyone is not familiar with logging helmets and chainsaw chaps take a look a www.Bailey-online.com . A search in the Safety forum will also bring up some interesting stories that might make you consider the purchase of safety gear.

Hi Mark,

I want to add a correction to your link, it should read Bailey's Husqvarna Chainsaw, Logging and Woodsman Supply

Your`s was simply missing the s on Bailey`s.

 

[MarkV]

Hi Mark,

I want to add a correction to your link, it should read Bailey's Husqvarna Chainsaw, Logging and Woodsman Supply

Your`s was simply missing the s on Bailey`s.

Opps, My Bad. Thanks for the fix.

MarkV

 

[norsker]

Hi again Mark,

I don`t know how or why the software did what it did, but when I added the s to the info that you had posted it added the whole Bailey`s Husqvarna........spiel as a title for the link. But atleast it will take you to their site.

 

[Obed]

Hi all. Sorry I've been absent from this thread for a while. I spent the last two Saturdays re-setting our electric pole and panel. Re-setting Electric Pole & Panel Pictures. If the weather cooperates, I plan on taking down the tree that is the subject of this thread this Saturday. I'll take some pictures and post them. Unfortunately the forcasted high for Saturday is 31 degrees F.
Obed