Backhoe Vs. 12000 LB Mini EX

[4570Man]

4570man,

Your spot on regarding the SSQA trencher run from PTO hydraulic system and is sole reason my longer term project is finding method to route existing very suitable pump flow capacity to the FEL via a mechanical valve. I foolishly did not buy the 3 point hitch PTO driven 48" six wide trencher in late 2020 when it was in stock and $7K. Now they are 9-11K for Bradco or Virnig and 6 months delivery. I don't buy stuff when price is ludicrous. We will respecfully agree to disagree on some of the other points.

The skid steer and mini of the same weight class will outperform the M59 by a noticeable margin in brute force not even considering productivity. My M59 would lift a 3600 pound bundle of plywood on the forks but it was absolutely done with that. It wouldn’t even consider lifting a 4400 pound bundle of shingles. And when you were pushing it to the limit like that you could tell it really wasn’t built to endure that everyday. My SVL75 will lift the 4400 pound of shingles. I have less factual information to support the mini x being stronger than the backhoe but when you’re digging side by side with a 3ft bucket you can tell a noticeable difference. The mini and skid steer have much heavier duty booms boom mounts and cylinders mounts than the M59 does.

 

[M59]

One advantage to a rubber tired hoe is it can be roaded, no trailer needed at times.

I have done a half mile on the road with M59 but that is the limit. Too many crazy drivers in the NC hills.

 

[LouNY]

I have done a half mile on the road with M59 but that is the limit. Too many crazy drivers in the NC hills.

I've done 9 miles when I rented a big NH hoe a few years ago was cheaper then delivery, and that was twisty hilly NY rural roads.
Often do 2-5 miles with farm tractors and wagons.
Also in this state depending on the law enforcement if the GVW rateings of your combined vehicle is over 26,000 pounds or if just your trailer is over 10,000 gvw CDL is required unless you are running farm tags on the truck.

 

[M59]

I've done 9 miles when I rented a big NH hoe a few years ago was cheaper then delivery, and that was twisty hilly NY rural roads.
Often do 2-5 miles with farm tractors and wagons.
Also in this state depending on the law enforcement if the GVW rateings of your combined vehicle is over 26,000 pounds or if just your trailer is over 10,000 gvw CDL is required unless you are running farm tags on the truck.

Love those "farm tags". Can get away with almost anything. I once worked with guy in CT, where farm tags allowed a vehicle to be anywhere within a 50 mile radius of the 100 acre farm, who ran a land clearing business and every piece of equipment had farm tags. This included a cat 385 feller buncher ( 185K Lb machine ) that would clear a heavily wooded acre per hour. A rolling bed aluminum 53 foot trailer receiving chip from a chipper with a 12 foot wide belt that was 45 feet long. The feller buncher would cut a group of trees and lay the bundle on the ground, a second Cat 325 ( 57K + lbs ) would pick each tree up and lay the entire 60-80 foot tree on the belt and the chipper, capable of eating everything up to 40 inches, just chewed it up and spit it into the rolling bed trailer without any hesitation or slowing down of the feed rate. If the wood was worthy of selling fire wood then it was set aside, otherwise it got chipped. He sold firewood on the side and had 3,000 cord on the lot at all times, 1000 dried and ready for sale, a 1000 a year old and 1000 green needing curing. Everything had farm tags. The feller buncher and the rolling bed chipper were each million dollar machines. All state tax free.

I watched the feller buncher cut a tree that was 6-7 feet across at the base. He cut halfway thru and then went around the opposite side and cut the remaining half and laid the tree down onto the ground. Did not drop the tree, he laid it down while holding it with the Cat 385.

We all on TBN are just playing with toys!!

 

[Curious kitten]

OK follow up question:

I get that differnt soils mean differnt job lenghs but just pretend you are digging in the soil your used to and would expect in your area

Time To dig a typical 1200 sq foot basement 8 ft below grade with a 5 ton mini and skidsteer (one operator)

Vs time to dig the same basement with a 100 hp backhoe?

 

[crashz]

That about 356 CY.

• One medium excavator (Cat 315 size): 1/2 day.
• The mini (E60) and skidsteer: 1 good day (8+hours)
• Backhoe: 1.5 to 2 days

All on competent ground, no wet conditions, experience operator. But..

You could make a ramp and get the skidsteer at the bottom and fine grade. You could also fine grade the exterior after backfilling. Backfilling with the mini equipment offsets capacity with agility. I've also worked with landscapers who could fine grade with the mini blade and do a great job.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

A backhoe still can move dirt a short distance. A small mini ex is great for water lines. Not as much for stumps. As far as hauling, you can over load a 3/4 ton real fast. I had a 3/4 with a 14k trailer. Could only pull about 12,500 legal.

I have tipped the scales many times over 50,000 lbs with a regular cab 3/4 ton and a gooseneck trailer.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

The biggest appeal to a backhoe is you don’t have to buy a mini x and a skid steer. Since you already have a skid steer get the mini x no question.

Yeah, but a big ole slushy backhoe is hard to get around houses and in yards.

 

[4570Man]

OK follow up question:

I get that differnt soils mean differnt job lenghs but just pretend you are digging in the soil your used to and would expect in your area

Time To dig a typical 1200 sq foot basement 8 ft below grade with a 5 ton mini and skidsteer (one operator)

Vs time to dig the same basement with a 100 hp backhoe?

A full-size backhoe is probably going to beat the 5 ton mini at that job for the simple reason the bucket is twice if not 3 times as big. It’s hard to overcome that loss. If you put something more comparable in its weight class like a 80 or 120 hoe the excavator will win. The 5 ton mini vs a M59 and the mini will do the job twice as fast. Here’s my full size Deere backhoe buckets vs my KX40 bucket. I have a 3 foot bucket for the mini that’s not pictured but you can see how much deeper the backhoe bucket is.

 

[M59]

4570man,

Left to R in your post, based on tooth count looks like 12", 12" 24" ( that has been playing with wet concrete ), and a 30" ( the Deere ). Not a fair comparison if your comparing the 30" to the shallow 24". I cant find struck volume for the 30" Deere but my guess is 6 cubic feet.

I run KX series quick attach buckets on the the M59. Pic of 24" (L) with struck volume 3.9 cubic feet and 30" struck of 5.9 cubic feet. The 24" below looks much deeper than the 5 tooth bucket in your reply.

 

[Fixastuff]

If you want to make good money you need to price by the job not do hourly work.

 

[4570Man]

4570man,

Left to R in your post, based on tooth count looks like 12", 12" 24" ( that has been playing with wet concrete ), and a 30" ( the Deere ). Not a fair comparison if your comparing the 30" to the shallow 24". I cant find struck volume for the 30" Deere but my guess is 6 cubic feet.

I run KX series quick attach buckets on the the M59. Pic of 24" (L) with struck volume 3.9 cubic feet and 30" struck of 5.9 cubic feet. The 24" below looks much deeper than the 5 tooth bucket in your reply.



View attachment 762677 View attachment 762678

I have a 12” , 24” and 36” for both machines. The Deere 24” and the Kubota 36 is missing from the picture. I actually don’t have a Kubota 12” anymore. I sold it and bought a 18”. My Kubota buckets are the same depth as yours. The full-size backhoe buckets dwarfs them by that much. I mean it’s not surprising when you consider how much bigger the backhoe is. I don’t have the backhoe anymore either. I sold it and bought a full size excavator.

 

[panamaguy]

I have seen this question navigated through a few times. I'm re-asking it with some context specific to myself. I am potentially selling a business that has nothing to do with Tractors or equipment. Looking to re-invest my proceeds and start up a Small Scale (kinda side hustle) earth moving Company. I already have a skid loader, dump trailer, & a 14,000 lb equipment trailer that I acquired for some personal projects. My area is very rual. 1 in 5 farmers here already has a skid loader and the other 4 have access to one they can barrow. So good luck getting paid work with one of those. I have been thinking about investing in a backhoe or a larger mini ex as those machines are a little more scarce in these parts.


I’m leaning towards a bobcat E60 mini ex (12000lbs 13ft arm) or similar as it can fit on my trailer and can be easily towed with a 3/4 pickup. I believe the work I would find is septic install and repair, digging up water lines and sewer lines for plumbers, digging graves, and the occasional egress window or basement.

Got a few questions for the smaller scale excavators out there.

Am I targeting an appropriate machine that’s going to be marketable or do I need to look for something else bigger/smaller or completely different?

If I’m not asking a top secret trade secret question, what would someone charge hourly for a E60 and what area are you in?

Am I correct in thinking that a 12,000 pound mini ex is gonna be comparable to a backhoe just more towable and without the front bucket?

Well my advice is not to go that big. I do everything you mentioned here with my IHI 15 NX which is a 4000 lb machine. Plus I also dig swimming pools. Besides the 12 inch bucket that came with the machine a built a 36 inch bucket with no teeth, it is great for softer material for moving more dirt and also cutting swale ditches.. I get lots of work because my machine will fit into places that are smaller eg. Pools in yards that already have houses and fences. My hourly rate would not help you as I live in Panama but it is 25 a hour as a big full sized backhoe like a JD310 CAT 416 is 40 to 45 a hour. My machine burns about a dollar fifty a hour in fuel.. Mine too is a hobby since I moved here from Canada. Best of luck.. A good company name is Dirt Works

 

[Lastkidpicked]

Part of my thinking in this business idea is based on the lack of rental options around. I have too higher a contractor to dig a trench at my day job once in a while and the equipment / contractors are coming from 3 hours out sometimes. The guys In The area with hoes are to booked up of just not interested In The one off work I have for them

This is your real advantage. Those guys are not your competition, and in fact can probably help you.

We built our side business with guys like that. Telling them, "If people ask you to do a job that's too small for you, don't tell them no. Give them my number."

People in general want to be helpful. Rather than say "no", It's much better for them to say, "I can't do it, but George can and here is his number."

You can return the favor by sending business their way if it's too big for you to handle.

 

[panamaguy]

You are correct lastkidpicked I get lots of work from the big guys and hand out their numbers when it's to big for me and I am not seen as competition either as I have the only little machine within 60 miles.

 

[gtbensley]

There is no way you are going to be able to tow something that large with a 3/4 ton truck. Even a E42 will be pushing it once you have it loaded on the trailer.

As far as size vs a backhoe I think anything 3.5t and up will compete very well with a M59 size or Deere 110 but be much more efficient.

I would go look for a Bobcat E42 R2 machine....they are very strong for the size and you could get away with towing it on your setup.

 

[panamaguy]

There is no way you are going to be able to tow something that large with a 3/4 ton truck. Even a E42 will be pushing it once you have it loaded on the trailer.

As far as size vs a backhoe I think anything 3.5t and up will compete very well with a M59 size or Deere 110 but be much more efficient.

I would go look for a Bobcat E42 R2 machine....they are very strong for the size and you could get away with towing it on your setup.

Saw a video on YouTube years ago with a tractor hoe VS a crawler hoe of equal size. The tractor hoe did not stand a chance. Too many things you need to do to move up a few feet as compared to a crawler.

 

[Tony H]

I have a JCB MINI CX which is equivalent to a JD 110. AND if I were you, I would go with the EX. 360 degree rotation to put dirt is very handy compared to 180 degrees of a backhoe. Tracks on the Ex beats tires for grading. Getting in and out of tight spots after running a ditch, put the bucket down on one side of tracks and rotate the entire machine 90 degrees and drive out over the newly made ditch. Much more versatile, I'm sure many folks by you have tractors with FELs. So they will do their own work that needs a Loader. Excavator will handle backhoe work, better

 

[coast40]

OP- Would you want to haul the mini-ex and skidsteer all at once or make separate trips for each? Would you need both pieces on jobs? Thinking jobs a distance from base.

 

[HayFarmer]

Around here you would need a state license to do most site work.

A guy south of me is Mike Mulligan, his truck has a picture of the steam shovel from the story.