Backhoe Vs. 12000 LB Mini EX

[M59]

This is your real advantage. Those guys are not your competition, and in fact can probably help you.

We built our side business with guys like that. Telling them, "If people ask you to do a job that's too small for you, don't tell them no. Give them my number."

People in general want to be helpful. Rather than say "no", It's much better for them to say, "I can't do it, but George can and here is his number."

You can return the favor by sending business their way if it's too big for you to handle.

LastKidPicked,

Cudos to you for your thoughtful response. Similar to my earlier reply ( #4 ) to Curious Kitten in he can start small and not sink a bunch of money into equipment and then hope it pays off.

 

[wolfpack2]

I went through a similar decision last year. Buy a backhoe for the JD4520 or a mini ex. After renting a mini for a small project, there was no choice. I bought the mini to take on the much larger project over the past summer. Weight will be an issues. My little JD 35G plus the F350 and GN trailer tipped the scales at 25200. The F350 was only 120 lbs under the GVWR. The mini is 9600 lbs. The truck and trailer have a combined GCWR of 29.1K (11.5K + 17.6K). Fortunately, no CDL required for personal use in Michigan. If I decide to use it for side work, I will be looking at a whole lot of cost.

 

[wascomatw74]

Sorry computer problems

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I have seen this question navigated through a few times. I'm re-asking it with some context specific to myself. I am potentially selling a business that has nothing to do with Tractors or equipment. Looking to re-invest my proceeds and start up a Small Scale (kinda side hustle) earth moving Company. I already have a skid loader, dump trailer, & a 14,000 lb equipment trailer that I acquired for some personal projects. My area is very rual. 1 in 5 farmers here already has a skid loader and the other 4 have access to one they can barrow. So good luck getting paid work with one of those. I have been thinking about investing in a backhoe or a larger mini ex as those machines are a little more scarce in these parts.


I’m leaning towards a bobcat E60 mini ex (12000lbs 13ft arm) or similar as it can fit on my trailer and can be easily towed with a 3/4 pickup. I believe the work I would find is septic install and repair, digging up water lines and sewer lines for plumbers, digging graves, and the occasional egress window or basement.

Got a few questions for the smaller scale excavators out there.

Am I targeting an appropriate machine that’s going to be marketable or do I need to look for something else bigger/smaller or completely different?

If I’m not asking a top secret trade secret question, what would someone charge hourly for a E60 and what area are you in?

Am I correct in thinking that a 12,000 pound mini ex is gonna be comparable to a backhoe just more towable and without the front bucket?

A mini-ex will outperform a backhoe. Look to Youtube comparisons—also find the video of one new JCB backhoe operator that defies the trend.

 

[rScotty]

Well my advice is not to go that big. I do everything you mentioned here with my IHI 15 NX which is a 4000 lb machine. Plus I also dig swimming pools. Besides the 12 inch bucket that came with the machine a built a 36 inch bucket with no teeth, it is great for softer material for moving more dirt and also cutting swale ditches.. I get lots of work because my machine will fit into places that are smaller eg. Pools in yards that already have houses and fences. My hourly rate would not help you as I live in Panama but it is 25 a hour as a big full sized backhoe like a JD310 CAT 416 is 40 to 45 a hour. My machine burns about a dollar fifty a hour in fuel.. Mine too is a hobby since I moved here from Canada. Best of luck.. A good company name is Dirt Works

I enjoy following along on this thread, evern though I will just stay with my homeowner status. Our land gives me plenty of work right at home. But it's fun to speculate, and several of my friends have one-man excavation businesses locally so we talk and visit each other's jobs.

One guy who I thought would do better than the others had a tiny excavator that soundrd like a sewing machine. Little jobs were his specialty. He worked in suburban neighborhoods between expensive houses, and in backyards around pools, lawns, and gardens. Low overhead, neat clean work, and charged a decent dollar with a minimum.

He eventually moved on to larger machinery and larger jobs, so there is something about those jobs I'm not understanding.

 

[4570Man]

I enjoy following along on this thread, evern though I will just stay with my homeowner status. Our land gives me plenty of work right at home. But it's fun to speculate, and several of my friends have one-man excavation businesses locally so we talk and visit each other's jobs.

One guy who I thought would do better than the others had a tiny excavator that soundrd like a sewing machine. Little jobs were his specialty. He worked in suburban neighborhoods between expensive houses, and in backyards around pools, lawns, and gardens. Low overhead, neat clean work, and charged a decent dollar with a minimum.

He eventually moved on to larger machinery and larger jobs, so there is something about those jobs I'm not understanding.

Isn’t it male nature to want bigger equipment?

 

[sd455dan]

A mini-ex will outperform a backhoe. Look to Youtube comparisons—also find the video of one new JCB backhoe operator that defies the trend.

Yeah in the OPs case already having a trailer and a skid steer Mini ex all the way. Now if he had no equipment the backhoe would make sense jack of all master of none.

speaking of JCB funny vid of the comparison with a sequel

Part two the 3CX compact

 

[4570Man]

Yeah in the OPs case already having a trailer and a skid steer Mini ex all the way. Now if he had no equipment the backhoe would make sense jack of all master of none.

speaking of JCB funny vid of the comparison with a sequel

Part two the 3CX compact

That contest was rigged right from the start. At least get a KX-57 Kubota to compete in the weight class. But it’s obvious a mini excavator can’t compare in versatility. Especially when you rig the test even more by sending the backhoe with a whole trailer load of attachments and the mini x just has a bucket. A skid steer and mini x is the only reasonable comparison and the skid steer and mini wins that one by a landslide.

 

[sd455dan]

That contest was rigged right from the start. At least get a KX-57 Kubota to compete in the weight class. But it’s obvious a mini excavator can’t compare in versatility. Especially when you rig the test even more by sending the backhoe with a whole trailer load of attachments and the mini x just has a bucket. A skid steer and mini x is the only reasonable comparison and the skid steer and mini wins that one by a landslide.

Yep just an old JCB ad trying to sell JCB backhoes.
I noticed that JCB now sells mini ex's .
edit
They do make a clear case for: If you could only have" 1" machine and not able to have two ad makes a Good case for a backhoe.

In the OPs case Just makes sense to go with the largest mini he can haul, Since he has a trailer and a skid steer already.
At least that is the way it looks to me.

If JCB had their own line of ex's back then, Wonder if the ad would have been made?

 

[LouNY]

Heck I enjoyed both of the videos.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Yeah in the OPs case already having a trailer and a skid steer Mini ex all the way. Now if he had no equipment the backhoe would make sense jack of all master of none.

speaking of JCB funny vid of the comparison with a sequel

Part two the 3CX compact

The JCB video I was thinking of is this one, where a genuinely skilled operator was at the controls who understood the process being performed.

 

[sd455dan]

The JCB video I was thinking of is this one, where a genuinely skilled operator was at the controls who understood the process being performed.

That Operator is an artist

 

[4570Man]

Here’s my mini x on a job. Despite having similar sized booms my M59 would never be able to dump dirt past the second dig line like the mini x did. One of my biggest frustrations with the M59 was it’s inability to get rid of the dirt. My full size Deere was still limited to 180 degrees but a longer boom helped a lot. Another big limitation that I didn’t realize until I had the mini is sitting directly behind the backhoe boom is horrible for visibility. Sitting beside the boom is much better. Having the controls at your side compared to in front of you is much less tiresome to use. My mini x can drive straight across a 24” wide ditch. While it’s possible to cross ditches with the backhoe it’s not nearly as fast.

 

[4570Man]

The JCB video I was thinking of is this one, where a genuinely skilled operator was at the controls who understood the process being performed.

That guy is a pro operator but that video isn’t really representative of what you can expect from a backhoe. Those rotator attachments are high dollar. Modifying the controls so you can drive it backwards must’ve been expensive as well. And a backhoe is very unstable with the riggers up. He’s just pushing around sand.

 

[mikester]

Curious Kitten,

Don't want to rain on a potentially profitable line of work

Do you have a CDL? Are you even in the USA since I don't see a location indicated in your profile. Unless you have a CDL, you are limited to total combined vehicle weight of 26,000 Lbs otherwise local DOT, especially with commercial plates and/ or doing commercial work is quickly going to make your life painful and expensive.

My 3500 dualie ( both sides have magnetic labels "Private use only. Not for Hire" ) and 14K Lb rated trailer with M59 TLB ( 84" FEL and backhoe ) scales at 22,320 Lbs which puts me well under the 26K limit. The problem is the M59, at 9,980 Lbs, on the 14K rated trailer scales at 13,680 Lbs. If I go over 14,000 Lbs then DOT gets me for overloaded equipment. Ka Ching. Pay the State and points on your record. Insurance goes up and commercial license gets dinged.

There is no way you are getting a 12K Lb machine on a 14K Lb trailer legally or safety wise.

Have you considered drumming up work first BEFORE laying out cash for any machine and renting the necessary equipment UNTIL you know you have a line of work/ customer base/ reputation to pay cash for the next piece of equipment?

0.02 worth.

If you really want to put a damper on the OP's spending spree ask if he's purchased GCL insurance yet and if he has, did he tell the insurer his plans for digging on other peoples properties and transporting stuff other than his equipment.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

That guy is a pro operator but that video isn’t really representative of what you can expect from a backhoe. Those rotator attachments are high dollar. Modifying the controls so you can drive it backwards must’ve been expensive as well. And a backhoe is very unstable with the riggers up. He’s just pushing around sand.

I believe those are factory controls from JCB.

 

[MoMower]

I can chime in a bit…

I do what your looking to do, but with a SCUT class TLB and a bunch of 3 point attachments. All dirt/stone/ground work. I don’t plant anything.

I’m in PA, no CDL needed under 26001, DOT numbers required higher then 17001.

2018 F250, 15k tilt deck, 10k dump trailer.

$300k in general liability for up to 8’ depth excavations is $38 a month. Commercial vehicle insurance is $1200 a year for the truck and 2 trailers.

I legitimized 3 years ago, prior was beer money for buddies.

My ideal setup would be a CTL, mini and a trailer big enough to haul both, behind a 6 wheel dump, however mine is a side hustle ($25-$30k gross, last 2 years). The math doesn’t work as far as being able to work enough hours, to chase payments and still profit.

I specialize and have a nice niche with suburban homeowner sized projects. A lot of the bigger guys around here don’t want to be bothered.

Do Not price hourly, at least to the customer. When I say that, I did for the first year, it was $80 an hour including travel time.

Now I quote the job in total. Goal is $100 an hour. Most I win on, every once in a while you loose.

I got burned once with a cancel while Enroute, now it’s 20% at the time of schedule, and 50% of any preorder/pre purchase materials.

You’re considering a sizable outlay (everything I own or use, with the exception of the tilt deck and a few 3 point attachments, I would own anyway as we have a small farm). I would work the SS, rent an Ex for 6 mos or a year to see that it’s viable.

I have a feeling you’ll quickly be frustrated if you have to haul one machine at a time when both are needed. As every cost is less profit.

There’s money in it for sure, with consideration.

 

[M59]

I can chime in a bit…

I do what your looking to do, but with a SCUT class TLB and a bunch of 3 point attachments. All dirt/stone/ground work. I don’t plant anything.

I’m in PA, no CDL needed under 26001, DOT numbers required higher then 17001.

2018 F250, 15k tilt deck, 10k dump trailer.

$300k in general liability for up to 8’ depth excavations is $38 a month. Commercial vehicle insurance is $1200 a year for the truck and 2 trailers.

I legitimized 3 years ago, prior was beer money for buddies.

My ideal setup would be a CTL, mini and a trailer big enough to haul both, behind a 6 wheel dump, however mine is a side hustle ($25-$30k gross, last 2 years). The math doesn’t work as far as being able to work enough hours, to chase payments and still profit.

I specialize and have a nice niche with suburban homeowner sized projects. A lot of the bigger guys around here don’t want to be bothered.

Do Not price hourly, at least to the customer. When I say that, I did for the first year, it was $80 an hour including travel time.

Now I quote the job in total. Goal is $100 an hour. Most I win on, every once in a while you loose.

I got burned once with a cancel while Enroute, now it’s 20% at the time of schedule, and 50% of any preorder/pre purchase materials.

You’re considering a sizable outlay (everything I own or use, with the exception of the tilt deck and a few 3 point attachments, I would own anyway as we have a small farm). I would work the SS, rent an Ex for 6 mos or a year to see that it’s viable.

I have a feeling you’ll quickly be frustrated if you have to haul one machine at a time when both are needed. As every cost is less profit.

There’s money in it for sure, with consideration.

MoMower,

Well put. From the mouth of experience comes wise words.
What I got from your response was: Start small with smaller cash outlay and grow organically as cash flow in grows and captured jobs increases.