220V electricity and 110V

[SPYDERLK]

Actually, I think, anybody doing that understands electricity more then most! I did this on our underground pump house to feed a light that indicates the pump is running. Very handy if you leave water running somewhere.

I guess the worst thing is the possibility of removing the ground at the panel and getting a shock off it if you are grounded. But the same thing can happen if disconnecting a neutral.

And like I said, it's not one transformer, it's adding more and more. They all make unnecessary heat which equates to watts. I don't mind paying for something I get use of, but this is just wasted energy 24/7, no matter how little.

I've thought about doing this for same application. BTW, I googled 220V pilot light and the first one I found was $4.29 AC 220V Red LED Power Indicator Pilot Single Light Lamp 22mm - Led Household Light Bulbs - Amazon.com

Other than getting a shock off a lifted ground (as you noted: same danger as a lifted neutral) the difference is that all the metal enclosures, boxes, frames, cases, etc. (i.e. the things people normally touch) connected to that ground system could also be lifted to 120V (which is a lot different than a lifted neutral (i.e. most people don't go touching the conductor inside the white wire).

Another purpose of a (green) equipment ground conductor is to drain static electricity. If you're running amps down the ground conductor to the earth grounded end, Ohm's Law says that anything connected to other end will have a voltage rise (including all earlier mentioned metal enclosures, boxes, frames etc..) that sensitive people, electronics, and large animals touch. This is not usually a large voltage rise (depending on conductor length, gauge (resistance) , and amperage), but could lead to some unintended consequences. (Wonder if pacemaker's would be susceptible to this? I know cows are more susceptible to mastitis in these cases grounds. - But I doubt you have them in your well house.

Im seeing that Industrial Toys is doing this on a pump line. One can reasonably assume thats a special case where the ground conductor is only exposed in the pumpswitch and the service panel where it could easily be labeled white. A ground rod at the pump would establish the ground at that location.

 

[buickanddeere]

I am all for the guys that get their hands dirty making a good $$$ or three. But since when does the CEO of Hydro One need a $150,000.oo/year car allowance + fuel allowance when he flies most of the places he goes for free? That is on top of the big buck$ he already makes to sit on his duff* and do absolutely nothing productive. *duff was not my first choice of words, but it will do

Hydro One policy is set by the who ever controls the Premier of the Province.

 

[buickanddeere]

Actually, I think, anybody doing that understands electricity more then most! I did this on our underground pump house to feed a light that indicates the pump is running. Very handy if you leave water running somewhere.

I guess the worst thing is the possibility of removing the ground at the panel and getting a shock off it if you are grounded. But the same thing can happen if disconnecting a neutral.

And like I said, it's not one transformer, it's adding more and more. They all make unnecessary heat which equates to watts. I don't mind paying for something I get use of, but this is just wasted energy 24/7, no matter how little.

Being cheap is not a free pass to wire something up wrong. If you can't afford a dollar a year to operate the transformer. We can take up a collection here at tbn.

 

[buickanddeere]

I thought when Maurice Strong appeared on the scene, that Hydro was saved, but his position as head of Hydro was short lived and I never really found out what happened.

It's always those that have it made for life, that make decisions so damaging for the rest of us.

How could Maurice Strong, half brother of former prime minister Paul Martian improve hydro ? When MS wasn't taking bribes and being kicked out of the United nations . He was promoting a pagan nature worship called Gaia. https://whatiscommoncore.wordpress....nable-development-and-his-religion-of-gaia-2/

 

[buickanddeere]

I sometimes cheat, if I need 110 on a 220 circuit, by using the ground wire as a return. Not to code and only for very small loads. I don't like the X-Former idea as it uses a little power all the time. No big deal, except there are dozens of such small energy stealers thoughout my place.

Ontario hydro hired forestry crews from upstate NY about ten years ago to maintain the lines around here. I guess, no one in Ontario can run a bucket truck and chain saw! Probably too expensive for WSIB coverage..

Now the lines are again overgrown and any amount of snow, ice or wind will ensure an outage. That's OK! I just ordered another 3000 litres of (cheap!) diesel for the genset. I don't even bother to call anymore, but it's funny because the crews usually pull in anyway, attracted by all the outside lighting.

Those men on the trucks have my utmost respect and deserve every penny they make. I can't say the same for all the bureacrats.

It's actually the loss of signal from the dead smart meter that sends a crew.

 

[buickanddeere]

I am all for the guys that get their hands dirty making a good $$$ or three. But since when does the CEO of Hydro One need a $150,000.oo/year car allowance + fuel allowance when he flies most of the places he goes for free? That is on top of the big buck$ he already makes to sit on his duff* and do absolutely nothing productive. *duff was not my first choice of words, but it will do

You are worried about $150,000 when the Ontario Liberals have wasted over 40 Billion to date with green energy scams ? And billions more per year until the 20 year contracts run out don't bother you ?
Divide 150,000 into 40,000,000,000 , which is the greater concern ?

 

[Industrial Toys]

I don't have any faith at all in that auto-reporting system at hydro based on experience but that is an interesting thing to remember. .

Maybe I am confusing Maurice strong with another head of hydro that Ithought might be the right man for the job. Or maybe I just believed some BS that I read. Heard on the news that charges have been laid in the gas plant scandal. Amoung them mischief charges. 1.2 billion dollars and a mischief charge!

I was trying to think when I have used a neutral inappropriately. I have a few times used the ground as a neutral for ceiling fans, when they only have switched power going to them, and you want the lights still controlled by the wall switch but want the fan to have constant power.

 

[Looking4new]

You are worried about $150,000 when the Ontario Liberals have wasted over 40 Billion to date with green energy scams ? And billions more per year until the 20 year contracts run out don't bother you ?
Divide 150,000 into 40,000,000,000 , which is the greater concern ?

I didn't know how many billion$ of dollars they wasted.

 

[aczlan]

I see your point. IF the ground were to break, the pump and other metal equipment could become live (through the light) when the pump is running. Probably not a fatality waiting to happen, but given the very dangerous wet environment, probably not a good idea. I will see if I can source a long life 220v bulb. The present 110v has been working for decades.

I can tell you from experience that you CAN get shocked from a properly connected neutral on a 120v system. Not as bad as getting bit by the hot side, but it's enough to wake you up.

Aaron Z

 

[CobyRupert]

I can tell you from experience that you CAN get shocked from a properly connected neutral on a 120v system. Not as bad as getting bit by the hot side, but it's enough to wake you up.

Aaron Z

Hmmm. If it's properly connected and bonded to ground in the panel the voltage rise on the neutral should only be half of the voltage drop in your wiring (i.e. for a single phase circuit, 1/2 of the voltage drop is in the hot leg).
So let's say the voltage drop is large (5%), the voltage rise (from zero) in the neutral should be half of this, or 2.5% of 120V = 3 volts. The human body can be 1000 - 100,000 ohms depending on your skin, insulation of your shoes, what your standing on/in, the resistance of earth, etc...that forms the circuit back to the transformer's neutral there should be less than 3mA of current.

 

[TCJatko]

https://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html

I try to explain current and voltage to the wife. She's appalled when I tell her the flyback transformers on CRTs produce 10 KV or more but the one on the TV won't kill you. I get a blank stare.

 

[k0ua]

https://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html

I try to explain current and voltage to the wife. She's appalled when I tell her the flyback transformers on CRTs produce 10 KV or more but the one on the TV won't kill you. I get a blank stare.

I have been hit more than once with the 25,000 volts from a flyback. Not fun, but I am still here. More like a burn than a shock. I also got on a 330 volt DC line on a tuner once.. That was more concerning.. A lot more.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I have received lots of shocks through the neutral. Usually you are touching the metal box and of course the load is connected to hot. No big deal, just something to keep in mind.

Worst shock I ever got in my life was 347. I was tucking wires back into a junction box in a drop ceiling and some idiot (not me) had the wires stripped way too long for the marretts. I screamed involuntarily! That was back in the eighties when I worked as an electrician. No one ever bothered to turn off power back then.

Anyone but me ever get phantom shocks? That's what I call them anyway. It feels just like an electric shock but there is no electicity. Just the brain playing tricks, maybe in anticipation of getting a real shock.

 

[buickanddeere]

I can tell you from experience that you CAN get shocked from a properly connected neutral on a 120v system. Not as bad as getting bit by the hot side, but it's enough to wake you up.

Aaron Z

The neutral is an energized load current carrying insulated conductor . That fact seems to escape most folks who think ground and neutral are the "same".

 

[buickanddeere]

Hmmm. If it's properly connected and bonded to ground in the panel the voltage rise on the neutral should only be half of the voltage drop in your wiring (i.e. for a single phase circuit, 1/2 of the voltage drop is in the hot leg).
So let's say the voltage drop is large (5%), the voltage rise (from zero) in the neutral should be half of this, or 2.5% of 120V = 3 volts. The human body can be 1000 - 100,000 ohms depending on your skin, insulation of your shoes, what your standing on/in, the resistance of earth, etc...that forms the circuit back to the transformer's neutral there should be less than 3mA of current.

3V is more than enough to make live stock ill and die.

 

[buickanddeere]

I have received lots of shocks through the neutral. Usually you are touching the metal box and of course the load is connected to hot. No big deal, just something to keep in mind.

Worst shock I ever got in my life was 347. I was tucking wires back into a junction box in a drop ceiling and some idiot (not me) had the wires stripped way too long for the marretts. I screamed involuntarily! That was back in the eighties when I worked as an electrician. No one ever bothered to turn off power back then.

Anyone but me ever get phantom shocks? That's what I call them anyway. It feels just like an electric shock but there is no electicity. Just the brain playing tricks, maybe in anticipation of getting a real shock.

I took 240 through the chest on a 240/416 lighting system. In brief the building manager after unlocking the electrical room so I could open the breakers and he then locked the door. The building manager after the office women complained about some lights being out. He forgot about me working on lights in his desire to please the office lovelies and be a hero. He unlocked the electrical room and turned on every breaker. I could feel every heart beat and missed heart beat for an hour or more. Rarely have I ever wished so much grief upon any person.

 

[ultrarunner]

I still come across older appliances where ground is used as a substituted for neutral... it really was standard operating practice.... mostly Dryers and Ranges...

I don't have a 4 wire receptacle anywhere in the homes I take care of... the newest dates from 1960.

Some still have a secondary ground on the back that says to run a wire to a cold water pipe..

Then again... most of the building to not have grounded 120 V outlets either.

 

[TheGoose]

I didn't say I agreed with it. In fact I do not agree with it at all and I have known several people get shocked from doing it. The fact, however, remains that I see it almost daily. It's not right nor correct, but it happens. Like I said, if you have a true dedicated neutral you're good to go. I have started running everything in 12-3 w/ground to solve this problem. It costs a little more but then you have that neutral if needed.

Thanks for telling the "know nothings" and the " I don't care as long as it works" types to go ahead and run neutral current on the ground system. This is how electricians get unexpected shocks, phantom equipment operation occurs and livestock are tingle voltage shocked.

 

[TheGoose]

True story:
Some years ago I worked on a well that only had 220V but no neutral or ground (previous installation). Owner called me a few months later. He was having a softner installed and the installer was getting shocked. I went to take a look. He had connected one side of the 220V to ground just like always but since there was no ground he himself was the path and kept getting shocked. He kept telling me "I don't know anything about electricity". I informed him that if he knew nothing then he shouldn't be messing with it. It's almost kind of sad the shortcuts people take and how dangerous they can be.