220A welding circuit question

[speedy2]

O K, Thanks, I wasn' aware of that. Speedy2

 

[CharlieS]

This is getting a little OT, but this is incorrect for this panel type. The two bars tied together across the bottom are both neutrals. There is a third bar in the upper right for the grounds. That one is bonded to the panel, while the other two are isolated from it.

In that case yes you are correct, as long as there is a seperate ground bar that is not bonded to the neutral. With the various panel's out there and many configurations, some do use the configuration i mentioned. My point being though on a sub panel the ground bar and neutral bar cannot be bonded together.

 

[wstf2]

What is going on? The photo in post # 1 is not the same as the original photo, the input feeds led were black and there was a bare heavy gauge ground led, now the led are colored. In an other post it talks about the utility feed to the building being Red, Black, Blue, Ground and Neutral. That is very unusual to have 3 phase power to a home.

My original photo is still the same photo posted in my opening of this thread-notice that there is no TBN "EDIT" indicated at the bottom of the original post.

 

[wstf2]

After almost 40 years in the trade, of which 30+ are as a licenced master electrician, right off i notice two NEC violations in the OP's image posted.
Even though this is single phase, and as such generallly overlooked by inspectors, NEC requirements for color coding are black-red-blue when viewed from left to right, top to bottom or front to back. The only time NEC allows a change in phasing colors is in the case of three phase, where two wires need to be exchanged on terminals to reverse a motor rotation.
The second is definately a danger issue as it can potentially create back feed to the main panel in case of a fault.
For a sub panel, neutral and ground bar's may NOT be tied together. (A main panel its permissible and in most cases requiered.)
In this case the tie bar at the bottom of the panel needs to be removed, ALL white neutral conductors must be tied under the neutral bar on photo right, while all ground wires must be connected to the isolated ground bar photo left. This is called floating the neutral.Grounded conductor can be either solid or stranded wire, bare or insulated with green or green/w yellow stripe insulation, and must be a minimum #8 in size, though most juristictions i've worked in now require a minimum #6. Any conductor smaller than a #6 cannot be taped green, it must have an insulating coating of the proper color, or be stripped to expose bare wire. The main grounding conductor needs to be attached to a minimum 1/2 x 8' copper or copperclad ground rod or 5/8 x 8 galvinized rod. IF there is water suppled to the building, a cold water ground is also necessary as is bonding any building steel, in the case of a steel building.
That being said, in the case of a 240v welder, two power conductors and a ground are all thats needed generally to safely power and protect the equipment. The ground or equipment ground protects from shock hazard while the two current carrying conductors, (in a 240 volt application) will carry the load imbalance back to the panel for each other.
In the case of a 120v outlet, the white or neutral conductor is what carries said load imbalance back to the panel completing the circuit.

I'm looking at the Gereral Electric "DEH - 40537 Installation Instructions For 100-225 Ampere Single Phase 12-42 Circuit" that came with the panel and there is an illustrated drawing calling out that the two white verticle strips on each side of the circuit breakers and tied together with a crossbar at the bottom of each strip are both labeled as "Neutral". The third white strip which is located on the extrebe right and paralleling the right vertical edge of the bow is labaled as "Equipment Ground". I don't see where the ground bar is tied to the two neutral bars (which are tied together).
No offense to you outright or implied, your 40 vs. my 0, I'm just trying to learn by listening asking questions.

 

[Transit]

My original photo is still the same photo posted in my opening of this thread-notice that there is no TBN "EDIT" indicated at the bottom of the original post.

Then what was I looking at when I resounded [ post # 5] to your first post? I did see both input lines as black.

BTW, your new box is most likely configured as a sub panal box as others have stated.

 

[WKTEDDYBEAR]

My original photo is still the same photo posted in my opening of this thread-notice that there is no TBN "EDIT" indicated at the bottom of the original post.

it is the same photo I recall seeing

 

[WKTEDDYBEAR]

I'm looking at the General Electric "DEH - 40537 Installation Instructions For 100-225 Ampere Single Phase 12-42 Circuit" that came with the panel and there is an illustrated drawing calling out that the two white vertical strips on each side of the circuit breakers and tied together with a crossbar at the bottom of each strip are both labeled as "Neutral". The third white strip which is located on the extreme right and paralleling the right vertical edge of the bow is labeled as "Equipment Ground". I don't see where the ground bar is tied to the two neutral bars (which are tied together).
No offense to you outright or implied, your 40 vs. my 0, I'm just trying to learn by listening asking questions.

I agree,
the ground buss bar is partially hid under the neutral feed wire.
That said I at first thought they were tied together myself at first but have since realized they are both neutral buss bars .

 

[Inspector507]

Even though this is single phase, and as such generallly overlooked by inspectors, NEC requirements for color coding are black-red-blue when viewed from left to right, top to bottom or front to back.

Can you give me an NEC code reference for this color code, Black-Red-Blue?

Grounded conductor can be either solid or stranded wire, bare or insulated with green or green/w yellow stripe insulation, and must be a minimum #8 in size, though most juristictions i've worked in now require a minimum #6.

While you're at it, can you give me a code reference for this one too?

The NEC I read every day says the grounded conductor must be white or natural grey/gray.

 

[desertmike345]

The way I learned it was that you only need 2 hots to run a welder?.the ground wire is a safty factor and the neutral is not needed. I think the plug and recepticle are specific to welders.
Don't want to hijack the thread but I do have a question.

Since there are some electricians here I have a bonding question. I live on 5 acres and have been running wire to different buildings. I have a 200 amp service panel that is bonded (ground to neutral). From there I ran 1/0 w/#2 ground to a sub panel 115 feet away, then through a 4 foot high bank and out the other side about 10 feet (installed another sub panel) away from the first sub panel (again 1/0). From this sub panel I have 2 feeds. One is 75 feet of #2 and the other is 200 feet of 1/0 to my metal building. So I have 1 main panel and 4 sub panels. Three of the sub panels are not bonded. An electrician said to treat the metal building as a new structure and to bond it and use a grounding rod. The ground wire to the metal building is #6 copper and is connected to the main panel ground. Everything is 240/120 volt, 2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground.

My question is does the metal building " panel bonding and ground rod " seem ok since it is actually a sub panel .........only 325 feet away?

Thanks
Mike

 

[FredH]

CharlieS Wrote :

" The main grounding conductor needs to be attached to a minimum 1/2 x 8' copper or copperclad ground rod or 5/8 x 8 galvinized rod. "


Here in Oregon , we are Required to have not One ( 1 ) Grounding Rod but Two , ( 2 ) . Forgot now , maybe 6' feet apart ??? Only part of that I do remember is they had to be minimum " x " distance apart and no more than " x " maximum . The ground wire from the sub panel to both rod's had to be continuous and standing on a ladder at first to get both started with a electric jack hammer . The Electrical contractors for our house , let me use theirs over the weekend to finish the new sub panel in our shop .

My reference to ground / common wires is as others stated , I would rather have 3 coated wires in a 3 prong welder plug than have 2 coated and 1 bare , Simply because it is being used in a shop setting thus could be subject to abuse .
Using something like these items listed below :

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/42A.html

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/8/3-25ext.html

Fred H.

 

[crazyal]

So wstf2 did we answer your question? I think things got a little muddy with all the answers but electricity is something you want to get right the first time.

 

[CharlieS]

Can you give me an NEC code reference for this color code, Black-Red-Blue?


While you're at it, can you give me a code reference for this one too?

The NEC I read every day says the grounded conductor must be white or natural grey/gray.

My error, i was thinking of one while referencing another. to correct myself, "grounded" conductors are to be white or gray, while "grounding" conductors shall be bare, green or green with a yellow stripe.

NEC code references for phasing colors can be found in the chapter wireing methods and materials while grounding requirements will be in the grounding section. (I don't have my code book in front of me to reference specific chapter, section and verse)
Note too, for high voltage, phasing array would be brown, orange, yellow which is standard color coding for 277/480

 

[Inspector507]

My error, i was thinking of one while referencing another. to correct myself, "grounded" conductors are to be white or gray, while "grounding" conductors shall be bare, green or green with a yellow stripe.

NEC code references for phasing colors can be found in the chapter wireing methods and materials while grounding requirements will be in the grounding section. (I don't have my code book in front of me to reference specific chapter, section and verse)
Note too, for high voltage, phasing array would be brown, orange, yellow which is standard color coding for 277/480

Color coding may be "industry standards" or "industry practice" but it is not a code requirement. Unless there are two different voltages present in the same building. Then you need to identify the conductors by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging or other approved means.

 

[wstf2]

So wstf2 did we answer your question? I think things got a little muddy with all the answers but electricity is something you want to get right the first time.

Tomorrow morning, I'm ripping out the #6 four wire feed (it's only about two feet long) and replacing with #6 three wire, happens to be black, white and bare copper. I just want to be done with the four wire/clipped white neutral. If and when we sell the place, I want it to be right for the new owner.

 

[Mace Canute]

Tomorrow morning, I'm ripping out the #6 four wire feed (it's only about two feet long) and replacing with #6 three wire, happens to be black, white and bare copper. I just want to be done with the four wire/clipped white neutral. If and when we sell the place, I want it to be right for the new owner.

If you are that concerned about the neutral to the plug being in the panel, just clip it off as short as you can.

 

[dstig1]

It's done all the time. As long as you clip both ends and cover them, no big deal. No need to replace with the same size wire unless there are other problems in the setup...

 

[FredH]

WSTF2 : That is How my welder / plasma cutter plug is wired . It is about a 18" run from breaker box to plug . Since most welder type extension cords and plugs , like the one's I listed previously , Are 3 prong , 3 wire's are all you need .

Course , if you did sell your place , the next person may be color blind and not know WTF anyway . :thumbsup:
( Seriously , my Father-in-law was color blind and after we purchased the place , some of the wiring I had to figure out was a serious WTF situation .)


Fred H.

 

[grsthegreat]

I am an electrical contractor. Heres how it works. In the MAIN panel (the first panel just after the meter) the neutral and the ground can be landed on the same bus bar within the panel. Heres where it gets tricky. If there is another panel fed from this main panel, then the neutral bus MUST be insulated from the ground on the second panel(IE: The neutral bus will be mounted on a plastic spacer - all neutral wires go to this bus only. the grounds go to the ground bus.

Now, certain appliances are required to have 4 wire receptacles, such as ranges, dryers.2 hots , a neutral and a ground.

Welders only require 3 wires (2 hot and a ground). The typical welder plug will be rated 50 amps, 240 volts and have 3 prongs only.

The reason the neutral wire was added to dryers and ranges was due to the fact that these appliances have computers, light bulbs, clocks etc that required 120 volts and the older units were getting a fake 120 volts by using the ground as a fake neutral.

All you need to do is run a 6/2 copper romex to a 50 amp breaker in the panel. 2 hots and one ground.

then again, if your unsure....hire an electrician. beets getting fried.

 

[grsthegreat]

The way I learned it was that you only need 2 hots to run a welder?.the ground wire is a safty factor and the neutral is not needed. I think the plug and recepticle are specific to welders.
Don't want to hijack the thread but I do have a question.

Since there are some electricians here I have a bonding question. I live on 5 acres and have been running wire to different buildings. I have a 200 amp service panel that is bonded (ground to neutral). From there I ran 1/0 w/#2 ground to a sub panel 115 feet away, then through a 4 foot high bank and out the other side about 10 feet (installed another sub panel) away from the first sub panel (again 1/0). From this sub panel I have 2 feeds. One is 75 feet of #2 and the other is 200 feet of 1/0 to my metal building. So I have 1 main panel and 4 sub panels. Three of the sub panels are not bonded. An electrician said to treat the metal building as a new structure and to bond it and use a grounding rod. The ground wire to the metal building is #6 copper and is connected to the main panel ground. Everything is 240/120 volt, 2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground.

My question is does the metal building " panel bonding and ground rod " seem ok since it is actually a sub panel .........only 325 feet away?

Thanks
Mike

after the 2008 NEC code revision, ALL other buildings fed from one panel to another building HAVE to have a ground wire run to it along with the power and neutral legs...period.

You are also to install a ground rod at the other building in addition to the ground wire. However, if your buildings were wired prior to 2008, no worries. your not required to change anything. just make sure the other buildings have a good ground rod or rods (i always set at least 2). The reason for the bonding wires are due to the earths high resistance. The overloaded circuit cant find its path back to the source to open the circuit in a fault situation. The ground (bond) wire allows for a lower resistance path back to the breaker to open the circuit.

A fancy way of saying...more work for me.

 

[xtn]

Some of you seem to be confusing "grounded conductor" with ground.

GROUNDED = neutral
GROUNDING = ground

They are not interchangeable! What the OP needs is two hots (black and red) and a ground (green or bare) connected to his welding receptacle. The neutral (white) should not go to his welding receptacle. He should not use 120v romex (with a white).

That's it, period.