220A welding circuit question

[WKTEDDYBEAR]

The bare copper wire going down to the plug looks to be of the same size as the other three with the exception that it is solid and the red, black and white are braided. The bare copper is in the same wire jacket as the rest.
The 240 circuit is #6 wire from the 50A breaker to the plug below. The larger three red, black and white wires at the upper part of the box is the feed from the 100A main over at the house.
Since the #6 white seems to be only attached at the neutral, I know it isn't inside the plug box, should I just leave it alone?
Thanks for responding.
CORRECTION: The solid bare copper ground wire is about or more than half the diameter of the other three braided wires, compared copper to copper.

sorry I just now saw this reply! UNHOOK the white wire in the breaker box, shorten and cap securely with a wire nut. there should never be a wire hooked on source end that dead ends somewhere other then caped in a covered box. my guess is it has been cut off where wires exit the outer jacket.

1. For peace of mind and since it appears to be doing nothing, should I detach the white wire at the neutral bar and cap it off?
2. Should I pull the existing complete #6 four wire out (it's only about three feet long) and replace it with #6 hot black, hot white and ground green, following the exact sub panel connection path as the existing hot red, hot black and bare copper ground?
3. Leave it as is?
Again, thanks all, just want it to be safe and right for the three pronged connection welder.

#2- is wall sheet rocked or otherwise covered? if so leave it in there, if anything is holding it in place ,screw clamps at boxes, wall staples they will cause issues and even though it is only 3' it is required to be stapled/secured

 

[Inspector507]

1. For peace of mind and since it appears to be doing nothing, should I detach the white wire at the neutral bar and cap it off?
2. Should I pull the existing complete #6 four wire out (it's only about three feet long) and replace it with #6 hot black, hot white and ground green, following the exact sub panel connection path as the existing hot red, hot black and bare copper ground?
3. Leave it as is?
Again, thanks all, just want it to be safe and right for the three pronged connection welder.

I would leave it as is, you're fine.

 

[Haywire]

CORRECTION: The solid bare copper ground wire is about or more than half the diameter of the other three braided wires, compared copper to copper.

All the more reason to use the white wire for the neutral. You've got two 6 ga wires supplying power and one wire half that size for the return. No good in my experience.

Ian

 

[WKTEDDYBEAR]

All the more reason to use the white wire for the neutral. You've got two 6 ga wires supplying power and one wire half that size for the return. No good in my experience.
Ian

I think you missed the white wire is not in the plug box so he really can not use it
quote "white seems to be only attached at the neutral, I know it isn't inside the plug box"
in 240 volt it is not a return it is only a safety ground the hots are the returns thats why it is called alternating current, 120 volt the white is the return that is why white wire is called the neutral. 240 volt does not need a neutral

 

[Haywire]

"I think you missed the white wire is not in the plug box"

Yea, he'd have to either pull it and re-fish it through or open the wall up to find it.

 

[crazyal]

I think you need to back up a little. First off you're talking a sub-panel. In a sub-panel the neutral wires and ground wires can't be connected. Or to be more correct the neutral wires and ground wires are only to be connected in the main panel.

Your outlet has three connectors. Two hot, those would be your red and black wires in your sub panel and a ground. That needs to be connected up to the terminal strip that the bare ground wire connects to in your sub panel.

I missed something about the white wire, I'll reread and try and figure out what I missed. Are you talking about the white wire coming in from the main breaker or are you talking about a white wire in the wire you used to wire up the outlet.

 

[WKTEDDYBEAR]

Yea, he'd have to either pull it and re-fish it through or open the wall up to find it.

IMO not worth the effort to replace it and I do not believe he would find it, it likely was cut where it comes out of the outer sheath, that pretty much is standard procedure and has been for years with extra wire in multi conductor lines, many older houses from maybe early mid '60's era the ground wire was in the wire but was cut off cause outlets used were not grounded.

 

[crazyal]

I notice you have a white wire from a circuit connected to the ground buss, that may be wired incorrectly and a building inspector may pick up on it. If you look at your sub panel you'll notice that the white wire coming from the main panel connects to a terminal strip that's isolated from the metal frame of the box. It connects to the terminal strip on the other side of the breakers with a bar below the breakers. That's where all your neutrals connect.

 

[WKTEDDYBEAR]

I notice you have a white wire from a circuit connected to the ground buss, that may be wired incorrectly and a building inspector may pick up on it. If you look at your sub panel you'll notice that the white wire coming from the main panel connects to a terminal strip that's isolated from the metal frame of the box. It connects to the terminal strip on the other side of the breakers with a bar below the breakers. That's where all your neutrals connect.

he needs to unhook and shorten and cap that white wire in the sub panel as it is unused and is not in the outlet box. it appears that it is 6/3 + ground
he said wires used at outlet and visible in the box are the 2 hots (red&black) and a bare wire - ground

 

[WKTEDDYBEAR]

...
Your outlet has three connectors. Two hot, those would be your red and black wires in your sub panel and a ground. That needs to be connected up to the terminal strip that the bare ground wire connects to in your sub panel.
...
Are you talking about the white wire coming in from the main breaker or are you talking about a white wire in the wire you used to wire up the outlet.

in upper right of picture he indicates his ground properly hooked to the ground buss strip

I think someone else wired the outlet, they used 3+ ground so white is xtra

 

[dstig1]

All the more reason to use the white wire for the neutral. You've got two 6 ga wires supplying power and one wire half that size for the return. No good in my experience.

Ian

Ian, I think you are confusing two points here. The neutral is not the same as the ground. In the main panel, yes, they are tied together so at the same potential (ground) but the code is written so that the neutral is a "current carrying conductor" but the ground is not. The only time the ground wire should ever carry any current is during a short, and then the purpose is for it to return that current to the panel so it trips the breaker (and keeps the case of the tool/appliance from being energized). The neutral always carries current on a 120v circuit in use, and will sometimes carry current in a 4-wire 220V circuit (like a stove or modern dryer) as it will be used for 120V accessories like the timers. Welders don't generally have any 120v items so they just use 2 hots and one ground - no neutral.

 

[wstf2]

in upper right of picture he indicates his ground properly hooked to the ground buss strip

I think someone else wired the outlet, they used 3+ ground so white is xtra

Correct, two different electricians.

 

[wstf2]

I think you need to back up a little. First off you're talking a sub-panel. In a sub-panel the neutral wires and ground wires can't be connected. Or to be more correct the neutral wires and ground wires are only to be connected in the main panel.

Your outlet has three connectors. Two hot, those would be your red and black wires in your sub panel and a ground. That needs to be connected up to the terminal strip that the bare ground wire connects to in your sub panel.

I missed something about the white wire, I'll reread and try and figure out what I missed. Are you talking about the white wire coming in from the main breaker or are you talking about a white wire in the wire you used to wire up the outlet.

Yes, that white wire. See the sub panel photo in my opening post and the white wire/green arrow from the outlet below.

 

[crazyal]

I'm not sure what the code requires but if the white wire is not used I would either put a wire nut on each end or cut it off flush where it comes into each box (not sure if that's allowed by code though but it's often what I do).

 

[Transit]

Ian, I think you are confusing two points here. The neutral is not the same as the ground. In the main panel, yes, they are tied together so at the same potential (ground) but the code is written so that the neutral is a "current carrying conductor" but the ground is not. The only time the ground wire should ever carry any current is during a short, and then the purpose is for it to return that current to the panel so it trips the breaker (and keeps the case of the tool/appliance from being energized). The neutral always carries current on a 120v circuit in use, and will sometimes carry current in a 4-wire 220V circuit (like a stove or modern dryer) as it will be used for 120V accessories like the timers. Welders don't generally have any 120v items so they just use 2 hots and one ground - no neutral.

Yes Dave, I said the same thing.

 

[Transit]

What is going on? The photo in post # 1 is not the same as the original photo, the input feeds led were black and there was a bare heavy gauge ground led, now the led are colored.
In an other post it talks about the utility feed to the building being Red, Black, Blue, Ground and Neutral. That is very unusual to have 3 phase power to a home.

 

[speedy2]

Fellows, I'm not a electrican but if the green arrows indicate that the black and red wires in the picture are to be used to feed the welder should'nt one of them be on the other hot leg and on the same one? Just asking! Speedy2

 

[CharlieS]

After almost 40 years in the trade, of which 30+ are as a licenced master electrician, right off i notice two NEC violations in the OP's image posted.
Even though this is single phase, and as such generallly overlooked by inspectors, NEC requirements for color coding are black-red-blue when viewed from left to right, top to bottom or front to back. The only time NEC allows a change in phasing colors is in the case of three phase, where two wires need to be exchanged on terminals to reverse a motor rotation.
The second is definately a danger issue as it can potentially create back feed to the main panel in case of a fault.
For a sub panel, neutral and ground bar's may NOT be tied together. (A main panel its permissible and in most cases requiered.)
In this case the tie bar at the bottom of the panel needs to be removed, ALL white neutral conductors must be tied under the neutral bar on photo right, while all ground wires must be connected to the isolated ground bar photo left. This is called floating the neutral.
Grounded conductor can be either solid or stranded wire, bare or insulated with green or green/w yellow stripe insulation, and must be a minimum #8 in size, though most juristictions i've worked in now require a minimum #6. Any conductor smaller than a #6 cannot be taped green, it must have an insulating coating of the proper color, or be stripped to expose bare wire. The main grounding conductor needs to be attached to a minimum 1/2 x 8' copper or copperclad ground rod or 5/8 x 8 galvinized rod. IF there is water suppled to the building, a cold water ground is also necessary as is bonding any building steel, in the case of a steel building.
That being said, in the case of a 240v welder, two power conductors and a ground are all thats needed generally to safely power and protect the equipment. The ground or equipment ground protects from shock hazard while the two current carrying conductors, (in a 240 volt application) will carry the load imbalance back to the panel for each other.
In the case of a 120v outlet, the white or neutral conductor is what carries said load imbalance back to the panel completing the circuit.

 

[CharlieS]

Fellows, I'm not a electrican but if the green arrows indicate that the black and red wires in the picture are to be used to feed the welder should'nt one of them be on the other hot leg and on the same one? Just asking! Speedy2

@ speedy2
no because of the configuration of the attachment lugs in the panel a two pole breaker such as seen in the photo, the breaker is attached to one lug of each phase by default.

 

[rus_geek]

In this case the tie bar at the bottom of the panel needs to be removed, ALL white neutral conductors must be tied under the neutral bar on photo right, while all ground wires must be connected to the isolated ground bar photo left. This is called floating the neutral.

This is getting a little OT, but this is incorrect for this panel type. The two bars tied together across the bottom are both neutrals. There is a third bar in the upper right for the grounds. That one is bonded to the panel, while the other two are isolated from it.