99 problems and my tractor is every one of them

[coopdaloop]

In need of some warranty and mechanical insight and advice.

I should preface this first with an apology for the long winded and colossal amount of particulars. Also some base knowledge; the tractor in mention is a kioti DK4210 with approx 67 hours on the helm and owned for just over one year, has been looked after with meticulous care and attention. This occurred in Canada with all monetary values in Canadian dollars.

One day in July, upon completing my pre use inspection as indicated in the manual, which includes but is not limited to a coolant check on the reservoir, I was rough cutting the pasture field and the aforementioned tractor signalled for a re gen on the indicator cluster. I Initiated re gen cycle which lasted for about 40 minutes, during this time I was monitoring the temperature and rpm, both of which never deviated over normal peramiters.

Once re gen was complete, I continued rough cutting and after about 10 minutes the tractor called for another re gen , which I found suspicious thus prompting me to call kioti authorized service center (the dealership purchased from). Communicated my concerns to the service manager, who advised it was most likely sensor and to proceed driving as normal . As instructed I begin rough cutting once again, and the re gen light turned off. After 10 minutes in the field the re gen lights up once more and the tractor goes into limp mode and powers down with an F20 code. Called dealership and arranged inspection and pickup of tractor.

After several weeks, received phone call from service manager, he deemed the problem to be melted injector harness to which he failed to order the proper replacement but claiming correct component was on the way. After replacing they proceeded to force a re gen without acknowledging me or yet informing me what the F20 code signifies. They ran the tractor for an undetermined about of time. After they determined cylinder 2 had a knock, which I had never heard when tractor was in my possession. Dealership then called manufacturer as per standard operating procedures.

After 6 weeks of the original issue, I was informed that kioti would not honor the warranty due to radiator leak attributable to suspected damage to radiator from object.

Indications of these suspicions;
-Small crack in cowling
-dent on exhaust guard
-broken connection on plastic radiator mount


When tractor was in my hands the temperature never deviated from normal, never coolant on ground, reservoir was always full. Dealership claimed thermostat sensor would not operate effectively with zero coolant near temp sensor. As far as I know, if there was steam or lack of coolant then the gauge would act erratically . They gave me an estimated cost of repair to be just over $20,000. Simply the labour cost on the diagnosis of the issue is $5,700, due to their lack of knowledge or understanding. Called another kioti authorized service centre to which their estimate of repairs was$ 11,343 and change. Breakdown of cost as follows; diesel engine $7,610, 16 hours of labor(supposed standard of time according to their service book for this repair) at a rate of $119/hour. Remaining costs are associated parts. Not including transportation costs to new service centre.

Also worthy of note is within the last week the service manager whom I dealt with from the initial issue has since been relocated to field duties and new manager has been appointed. It's been just over two months since problem began.

I suppose I'm looking for insight on;
- how to properly gauge coolant level, as even the shop failed to notice coolant leak until after they forced the re gen. Neither the dealership nor the kioti manufacturer have provided any advice on this.
- why is there no guard to protect this area
- why did safety features fail to shut down before damage
- if anyone knows what the F20 code signifies, after extensive searches I've turned up with no answers due proprietary rights of kioti.
- new manager requested meeting on Tuesday, any advice for my meeting and how to proceed going forward

 

[grsthegreat]

according to michigan iron (a kioti dealership) the code means this

The codes listed refer to 'DPF" overload faults. This is generally caused by cancelling (2) Automatic Regen Cycles by reducing the engine rpm below 1700 during an automatic regen cycle. The dealer will need to do a "Forced Manual Regen" to be able to clear the DPF Filter and the error codes. These errors will put the tractor in "limp mode" to protect the engine.

 

[RjCorazza]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I have never owned a tractor that is capable of automatically shutting down during an overheating event. I have read that a coolant sensor not submerged in liquid doesn't report temperature correctly, potentially destroying the engine before the operator is even aware that there's a problem. Depending on where the temp sensor is located, and where / how the coolant leak occurred, I can see a bad outcome.

All tractors have vulnerabilities somewhere. I added some steel plates underneath my current machine where the hydraulic lines were unreasonably exposed. That said, sticks and debris have a way of finding the worst possible place to get into. Just this morning I pulled a wedged 1" branch out of the engine bay of my ZD1211 mower... Had to cut the stupid thing out.

If the radiator was damaged and had sufficiently low coolant to overheat, I can see any manufacturer denying a warranty claim. Why the huge difference in repair estimates is beyond me.

 

[coopdaloop]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I have never owned a tractor that is capable of automatically shutting down during an overheating event. I have read that a coolant sensor not submerged in liquid doesn't report temperature correctly, potentially destroying the engine before the operator is even aware that there's a problem. Depending on where the temp sensor is located, and where / how the coolant leak occurred, I can see a bad outcome.

All tractors have vulnerabilities somewhere. I added some steel plates underneath my current machine where the hydraulic lines were unreasonably exposed. That said, sticks and debris have a way of finding the worst possible place to get into. Just this morning I pulled a wedged 1" branch out of the engine bay of my ZD1211 mower... Had to cut the stupid thing out.

If the radiator was damaged and had sufficiently low coolant to overheat, I can see any manufacturer denying a warranty claim. Why the huge difference in repair estimates is beyond me.

Thank you for your response.I suppose I'm more interested in the fact the engine didn't have a knock before submitting to dealer. Also of equal interest is the dealer didn't detect that there was a coolant leak prior to force regening the tractor for x amount time. Possibly being a large contributor to said damage. In line with this I haven't received a answer on how to detect this issue going forward. I should note no object was ever found or detected during inspection as well as to my recollection of operating tractor. Of equal note is the alternative dealer believes that gauge would be acting erratically in said instance. And this dealer believes the other dealership is passing the buck.

 

[coopdaloop]

according to michigan iron (a kioti dealership) the code means this

The codes listed refer to 'DPF" overload faults. This is generally caused by cancelling (2) Automatic Regen Cycles by reducing the engine rpm below 1700 during an automatic regen cycle. The dealer will need to do a "Forced Manual Regen" to be able to clear the DPF Filter and the error codes. These errors will put the tractor in "limp mode" to protect the engine.

Thank you I will utilize that for further investigation in the matter. Have a wonderful day!

 

[tacticalturnip]

I don't know where to direct you, but I'd try to get in touch with the Kioti regional rep.

 

[coopdaloop]

I don't know where to direct you, but I'd try to get in touch with the Kioti regional rep.

Thanks for the response. I called kioti directly was told all communication goes through dealer. Was also told by dealer I was not allowed to talk to rep that handled root cause analysis.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I stay away from def.

 

[tacticalturnip]

Thanks for the response. I called kioti directly was told all communication goes through dealer. Was also told by dealer I was not allowed to talk to rep that handled root cause analysis.

That smells like a load of ********.

You could always take it to social media.

 

[coopdaloop]

Good point! These are my first steps leading to that. Looking at consensus from various people from the heavy duty/ tractor industry.

 

[ruffdog]

I was rough cutting the pasture field and the aforementioned tractor signalled for a re gen on the indicator cluster. I Initiated re gen cycle which lasted for about 40 minutes, during this time I was monitoring the temperature and rpm, both of which never deviated over normal peramiters.

Once re gen was complete, I continued rough cutting and after about 10 minutes the tractor called for another re gen , which I found suspicious thus prompting me to call kioti authorized service center (the dealership purchased from).

I am under the assumption that a regen can and will happen when you are working the tractor. Did you stop mowing during the regen?

 

[coopdaloop]

Yes I did. It goes into a higher rpm till x amount of time determines that the diesel particulate filter is cleared of "soot". During this process if you run your tractor it will void the Regen and postpone the eventual event. Eventually this action will lead to " forced" Regen you can't postpone. That is my understanding. Feel free to fill me in on my inaccuracies. Thank you.

 

[tacticalturnip]

Yes I did. It goes into a higher rpm till x amount of time determines that the diesel particulate filter is cleared of "soot". During this process if you run your tractor it will void the Regen and postpone the eventual event. Eventually this action will lead to " forced" Regen you can't postpone. That is my understanding. Feel free to fill me in on my inaccuracies. Thank you.

CK4020 Regen

This is my first tier 4 tractor so I’m learning as I go. After doing a lot of research I got pretty confident that the regen problems in the past were mostly in the past. I just bought this CK4020HST yesterday and so far I love it. But the salesman told me something that worries me. He said you...

www.tractorbynet.com

You should read this thread.

 

[2manyrocks]

It would seem to be that there needs to be certainty rather than "suspected damage to the radiator." There either is or isn't a coolant leak.

 

[cathy liebchen]

Insurance should cover that

 

[Bavarian]

I stay away from def.

Where in this whole story was a mention of DEF?

 

[coopdaloop]

Thanks for the response.It wasn't def it was DPF. It's a tier 4 emissions control function relegated to tractors over I believe 25 HP. Not fluid but filter.

 

[2manyrocks]

-Small crack in cowling
-dent on exhaust guard
-broken connection on plastic radiator mount

Saying crack instead of hole sounds like running into something or something having dropped on it as opposed to a stick punching a hole in the radiator. Is it possible this damage occurred during transit or even existed prior to them selling you the tractor?

Where is the crack in the cowling-- e.g., on the front like the tractor was run into something or on the top like something was dropped on it from above?

Is this fresh damage that appears to have happened recently?

Others can correct me, but I tend to use the level of coolant in the coolant tank as showing me how much coolant is present. I rarely take the radiator cap off. What does your owner's manual tell you to do about checking the coolant? Does it say to take the rad cap off?

I'd be asking them how much the coolant was low and when did they determine this?

If it wasn't knocking before you took it in, did the dealership do something to cause this?

You also mentioned the lack of a guard. Not sure what you are asking, but apparently a lot of tractors are sold with a grill guard frame that doesn't have any mesh on it to prevent sticks from poking through the cowling. They might or might not sell an accessory mesh insert for the grill guard frame.

40 minutes of regen seems unusually long. I thought regens usually took 20 minutes? Does your owner's manual state any expected time for a regen to be completed?

 

[Yander]

I'll just say, if you can document everything you're saying and feel that you can prove some of it or even all of it, contact an attorney.

It's really important that you have laid out everything in your timeline and if you can get the other dealer to work with you, which will probably be hard, use that against the dealer that you're struggling with.

The kind of money that you're talking about here probably think the lawyer will give you good advice and worth the money.

Sometimes just the threat of lawyers causes people to act differently. It sounds like you have nothing to lose at this point they're about to bend you over.

Edit: I'll add, if you can get them to give you written estimates for the work, both dealers, and see if they will engage in an email correspondence with you so you also have some of that in writing. Say nothing about an attorney and say nothing about contacting the other dealer. The less they know the better. The more you know the better.

I'm one of those that this would really piss me off and I would spend money to make them work at getting my money.

I threatened legal action about a $160 dental bill that I was supposedly sent to collection over. It was due to the dentist's office's negligence in not sending the correct documents to the insurance company in a timely manner. My wife happens to be a medical billing follow up specialist so she had already called the insurance company and had them nailed. We got a text a about 20 minutes after our conversation that they were not sending it to collections, though they said they already had.

When you have information and they finally know it, you put them in "oh $hIT" mode.

But, don't let them know what you know until it is too late and you are threatening legal action.

 

[coopdaloop]

CK4020 Regen

This is my first tier 4 tractor so I’m learning as I go. After doing a lot of research I got pretty confident that the regen problems in the past were mostly in the past. I just bought this CK4020HST yesterday and so far I love it. But the salesman told me something that worries me. He said you...

www.tractorbynet.com

You should read this thre

Saying crack instead of hole sounds like running into something or something having dropped on it as opposed to a stick punching a hole in the radiator. Is it possible this damage occurred during transit or even existed prior to them selling you the tractor?

Where is the crack in the cowling-- e.g., on the front like the tractor was run into something or on the top like something was dropped on it from above?

Is this fresh damage that appears to have happened recently?

Others can correct me, but I tend to use the level of coolant in the coolant tank as showing me how much coolant is present. I rarely take the radiator cap off. What does your owner's manual tell you to do about checking the coolant? Does it say to take the rad cap off?

I'd be asking them how much the coolant was low and when did they determine this?

If it wasn't knocking before you took it in, did the dealership do something to cause this?

You also mentioned the lack of a guard. Not sure what you are asking, but apparently a lot of tractors are sold with a grill guard frame that doesn't have any mesh on it to prevent sticks from poking through the cowling. They might or might not sell an accessory mesh insert for the grill guard frame.

40 minutes of regen seems unusually long. I thought regens usually took 20 minutes? Does your owner's manual state any expected time for a regen to be completed?

Ok so the crack occurs at the mesh of the hood where the exhaust pipe comes to. The exhaust pipe guard is bent. The radiator plastic mount/drain that is protected by a rubber grommet is bent off. The age of damage is hard to determine due to tractor being very new. 67 hours. The owners manual only specifies to look at reservoir. No mention of rad cap or even that that would be an effective way to gauge it. I guess I'm at a loss as why there is no sight glass on a radiator if this is known condition for failure in rad leak. Or perhaps why there isn't low level radiator sensor to alert you to this potential impending crap show lol.

It would seem to be that there needs to be certainty rather than "suspected damage to the radiator." There either is or isn't a coolant le