Buying Advice Diesel smog emission stuff?

[ptsg]

No. They are both N/A tractors (completely different engine than L2501). However, both do share the same engine but, the L3901 is ‘tuned’ to have more fuel, resulting in the power increase over the L3301.

Mike

It also changes to common rail on anything above 25hp, right?

 

[5030]

I understand it perfectly if you bothered to read my comment, which you obviously did not.

 

[Rdrcr]

I understand it perfectly if you bothered to read my comment, which you obviously did not.

I did. Thoroughly.
It just doesn’t make sense, financially speaking.

Why would I ‘upgrade’ to a new tractor when Turbocharging my current tractor is cheaper. Less overall total tractor investment, with more power and same operating weight.

Mike

 

[DieselBound]

I did. Thoroughly.
It just doesn’t make sense, financially speaking.

Why would I ‘upgrade’ to a new tractor when Turbocharging my current tractor is cheaper. Less overall total tractor investment, with more power and same operating weight.

Mike

Depends on what you're "upgrading". IDI (Indirect Injection) engines aren't very accommodating for increasing power: there are some exceptions; I really only know of one: Mercedes OM606 [and that family]. Don't know about tractors and turbos (but I _DO_ know a little about such with road vehicles) but there's more than just adding a turbo- was the bottom end designed/spec'd to handle the increased torque, can the exhaust (and intake) really handle the increased flows and are you really able to properly control boost and EGTs?

Many manufacturers today have given model groups that offer a range of power. In this case IF attachments and frames and drivetrains are basically the same then all will work together then bumping power is possible (likely one is looking to have to tweak the ECU [if one exists- more and more this is the case]),

Less HP _can_ work for many things, just takes longer. My 30hp small-frame B7800 has done an amazing amount of work; stuff that I cannot pick up to move I push around. I've done things that no larger tractor could do. That this machine is an IDI and has no emissions equipment (one can really tell when operating it- and it being an open station really makes it clear after operating my Kioti); IF there were one just like it that could do everything that this one does but it had emissions equipment I wouldn't care.

Buy for 80+% of what you think you need. There will always be things that you need more power for but it should be very infrequent and in such cases RENT the power. Having too much machine means a lot more cost for maintenance and repairs: bigger equipment can also more readily destroy things you don't want to destroy (larger accidents)!

I've got about 870 hrs on my [2016] Kioti. I run it like I run all my equipment: I make it work. No engine or drivetrain issues: dealer did have to reseal rear diff cases under warranty (I've got hundreds of hours since then and all is holding up fine). There's only been TWO instances of my tractor running a regen when I was wanting to stop working- I just found more stuff to do and did them; in the entire scheme of things this is a total non-issue over the course of all these hours. Entropy will polish off EVERYTHING, eventually: it'll most likely finish off ME before it gets my Kioti.

Regarding HSTs, it depends on how you have to work. I would not have anything else on my property (even my Polaris UTV is hydrostatic). I have no significant slopes and I have a lot of things to have to navigate. I have no ideological blinders in this regard. I seek out the right tools for the job that _I_ have. I have no allegiance to a "brand" as not all offerings from manufacturers are of the same quality AND stay the same over time.

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and move forward. I did that with my Kioti and found myself banging my head for quite a while in the beginning (leaking cab and some other issues) but over time this machine as proven itself to be exactly what I wanted and what I needed. Would I buy the same machine today? I'd have to research to determine that. Last I looked there wasn't a law that said that if you buy something that you are stuck with it for life. If it turns out it's not what you needed then sell and buy something else: if one does due diligence in defining requirements then one isn't likely going to miss the mark to the degree that one has to turn over equipment in a meaningfully shorter period of time than one was expecting. You'll take a financial hit for sure but how much of a financial hit are you taking by waiting to buy something? Time is money... (one can always get more money but one cannot get more time)

 

[Rdrcr]

Depends on what you're "upgrading". IDI (Indirect Injection) engines aren't very accommodating for increasing power: there are some exceptions; I really only know of one: Mercedes OM606 [and that family]. Don't know about tractors and turbos (but I _DO_ know a little about such with road vehicles) but there's more than just adding a turbo- was the bottom end designed/spec'd to handle the increased torque, can the exhaust (and intake) really handle the increased flows and are you really able to properly control boost and EGTs?

Many manufacturers today have given model groups that offer a range of power. In this case IF attachments and frames and drivetrains are basically the same then all will work together then bumping power is possible (likely one is looking to have to tweak the ECU [if one exists- more and more this is the case]),

Less HP _can_ work for many things, just takes longer. My 30hp small-frame B7800 has done an amazing amount of work; stuff that I cannot pick up to move I push around. I've done things that no larger tractor could do. That this machine is an IDI and has no emissions equipment (one can really tell when operating it- and it being an open station really makes it clear after operating my Kioti); IF there were one just like it that could do everything that this one does but it had emissions equipment I wouldn't care.

Buy for 80+% of what you think you need. There will always be things that you need more power for but it should be very infrequent and in such cases RENT the power. Having too much machine means a lot more cost for maintenance and repairs: bigger equipment can also more readily destroy things you don't want to destroy (larger accidents)!

I've got about 870 hrs on my [2016] Kioti. I run it like I run all my equipment: I make it work. No engine or drivetrain issues: dealer did have to reseal rear diff cases under warranty (I've got hundreds of hours since then and all is holding up fine). There's only been TWO instances of my tractor running a regen when I was wanting to stop working- I just found more stuff to do and did them; in the entire scheme of things this is a total non-issue over the course of all these hours. Entropy will polish off EVERYTHING, eventually: it'll most likely finish off ME before it gets my Kioti.

Regarding HSTs, it depends on how you have to work. I would not have anything else on my property (even my Polaris UTV is hydrostatic). I have no significant slopes and I have a lot of things to have to navigate. I have no ideological blinders in this regard. I seek out the right tools for the job that _I_ have. I have no allegiance to a "brand" as not all offerings from manufacturers are of the same quality AND stay the same over time.

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and move forward. I did that with my Kioti and found myself banging my head for quite a while in the beginning (leaking cab and some other issues) but over time this machine as proven itself to be exactly what I wanted and what I needed. Would I buy the same machine today? I'd have to research to determine that. Last I looked there wasn't a law that said that if you buy something that you are stuck with it for life. If it turns out it's not what you needed then sell and buy something else: if one does due diligence in defining requirements then one isn't likely going to miss the mark to the degree that one has to turn over equipment in a meaningfully shorter period of time than one was expecting. You'll take a financial hit for sure but how much of a financial hit are you taking by waiting to buy something? Time is money... (one can always get more money but one cannot get more time)

I haven't researched and worked on any Kioti tractors (yet) but, with the Kubota Standard L Series tractors, the L2501, L3301, L3302, L3901 and L3902 all share the same Hydrostat unit and the same 28:27 input ratio. All components in PTO are the same with the exception of two gears. You can match PTO speeds in the L2501 by replacing those two gears.

The L2501 HST relief pressure is only 100psi lower than the L3301 / L3302 and L3901 / L3902.

The D1703 engine found in the L2501 has been turbocharged by Kubota in previous applications, engine internals across the D1703 family are virtually identical with the exception of the cylinder head where there has been a small change to valve angle.

Edit: If you're looking for HP/Torque, PTO HP and/or EGT readings, please read my thread posted here;

Kubota L2501 Turbo: A Journey Defined - The Tractor, The Comparison, The Modification, The Results

Part 1: Background The purpose of this thread is to share the concept, creation, progress and performance of my custom Turbocharged Kubota L2501 HST 4WD tractor. I’ll start by offering my opinions on this tractor, why I bought it, how it’s performed, the advantages and disadvantages, and why I...

www.tractorbynet.com

Mike

 

[RenoHuskerDu]

My choice is to shop longer, have a wad of cash ready in the gun safe, and wait for an older model pre-emissions tractor to come up for sale. Your best bet is word of mouth, local fakebook pages, estate sales "Sir, will that old tractor be up for sale" deals. Folks with the older tractors don't generally sell them. The modern emissions equipment increases complexity hence maintenance costs.

Rant on:
Speaking broadly, every new convenience represents a skill lost. The older diesels just need fuel, compression and air to run. DEF, DPF, common rail, piezoelectric, even HEUI require the modules that control them. Those various "modules" or "black boxes" on modern machines (and pickups) are computers. Computers in an outdoor environment have a limited lifespan.

They cannot be diagnosed even by an experienced diesel mechanic unless he has the electronic diagnostic tools needed. For a pickup you can read the OBD faults with a simple $30 reader and your phone. Not so easy with tractors. So a failure usually means a trip to the shop. My neighbor had his 6yr-old JD towed in once - $400 - because the motor started and ran fine, the hydraulics too, but the drive wheels would not turn. He's an experienced master machinist who builds many things, including his own hot rod. When he picked it up $3000 later, he asked what was that row of tractors similar to his at the dealer. "Those are machines we're having trouble diagnosing, so we took them in on trade..."

Do you want to be part of that rat race? I don't.

I did break down and buy one new 55hp LS tractor. It's been flawless except for an oil leak fixed under warranty. But all my other machines including pickups are pre-DPF.

Let's talk diesel pickups. What has the modern tech given us? Power is up and visible smoke is down. But woe to you if you run low on DEF. As to power, it would be up anyway, as it is with gassers, because of progress driven by the free market competition for your hard earned dollars. And the Swedes did research finding that tiny modern diesel nanoparticulates penetrate further into our body, even into the blood and thru the blood/brain barrier. The smelly old diesels with visible black smoke didn't do that. You just avoid breathing it, an old art called Common Sense, and those large particulates settle to the ground.

What's the repair cost if your HPOP fails on a 6.7 Powerstroke (or Duramax, Cummins)? Last I heard it was about $8k, because the pump's shrapnel fills up the injectors and common rail. I decided to sell my 2018 6.7 and find another 7.3 diesel. My son read the 2018 with FORscan and found that the new truck had 18 computers. One for the steering wheel, one for the butt vibrating seats. Wretched excess. Every modern convenience is a skill lost.

Rant off.

 

[Paystar]

Whether the new tractors are reliable or not, I will never own anything with a DPF again. And only because I ran 3 SCR/DPF trucks before I quit trucking and one of them made me hate life. I spent more time sitting at the dealer than I did working or being at home. So unfortunately that one truck gave me such a bad experience I won't even take a chance on a new diesel of any kind ever again.
I know many people here have new tractors and they have been trouble free, but all it takes is to look at all the threads on here, and videos on You Tube of the ones that have troublesome emissions problems and that's enough to remind me why I don't even want to take a chance again.

 

[2manyrocks]

Had the opportunity to speak with another tractor operator yesterday that seemed pretty knowledgeable. I asked him about local repair tractor shops in the area to see if he knew someone that could work on my Mahindra.

His assessment was it all boiled down to whether the dealer would stand behind the repair. He went on to explain that the 60-70 year old guys who knew mechanical tractors were retiring and couldn't work on computerized tractors very well. The 30 year old techs were dependent on tractor computers to tell them what's wrong with the tractor. There's a risk that in repairing the bad seals, they will tear up something else doing the repair. Overall, I didn't get a very good feeling.

One concern for me about DPF is on the one hand it is supposed to be good for preventing air pollution, yet it traps particles in a filter that the EPA views as hazardous waste??? What do you do with used DPF filters and how much does it cost to dispose of them?

 

[5030]

One concern for me about DPF is on the one hand it is supposed to be good for preventing air pollution, yet it traps particles in a filter that the EPA views as hazardous waste??? What do you do with used DPF filters and how much does it cost to dispose of them?

You or your dealer gets them cleaned and the stuff inside (burned up soot) goes to a hazardous waste landfill. Most dealers don't have the cleaning machine so they send them out. The truck dealership I retired from bought one of the machines (very expensive) and had a steady diet from other dealers and shops for cleaning. The 'no good' rejected ones went to the landfill, same one that accepted the soot. The machine they had cleaned many filters before the machine got full enough to empty and send to the landfill but included in the cleaning was a charge for disposal anyway...

The issue with a DPF filter is, they cannot have any damage to the substrate or they cannot be cleaned (the machine rejects them) and then they have to be replaced. Far as I'm concerned, it's a racket. Kind of like passing an emissions test which here in this state don't exist.

Far as cost, they charged by the size of the filter and if they removed it from a truck, they also charged shop rate for that.

T4 big trucks have big DPF filters and what I found interesting was, the DPF filters weren't an issue (fail), it was the sensors that failed, that and the urea injection systems. Those were always failing.

 

[2manyrocks]

I'm also guessing all the electronics are there mostly to make the tractor meet emissions standards?

 

[5030]

Basically with the exception of common rail, high pressure injection. Problem is every manufacturer uses the least expensive components. Sort of like the Takita air bag scenario. No manufacturer wanted to adopt T4, the EPA forced them into it. Same with Europe but a different EPA. I believe in Europe is TUV or something like that.

 

[jyoutz]

I'm also guessing all the electronics are there mostly to make the tractor meet emissions standards?

Not entirely. My pre-emissions
diesel truck with common rail 5.9 Cummins has an ECM.

 

[RB5]

I have a Deere 4044M. It needs to run at 1500 RPMs or the regen will eventually kick in. The only issue I've had with it is that my father in law borrowed it having no clue about the regen feature for the diesel particulate filter. He mentioned that it ran louder than normal... and he shut it off. When that happens it can sometimes be difficult to get the regen to complete. I was due for service at the time, so I let the dealer handle it. When it goes into regen mode the tractor must maintain 1500 RPMs until it senses the filter has been cleaned off. Mine very rarely goes into regen. I did have to let it run 15 or 20 minutes until the regen was completed after I was done working with it a couple months ago. I would much rather have the regen feature than have to add DEF.

 

[ruffdog]

Rich,

You should get a tractor that can do the work and tasks you want to do, in the time you want to do it in.

If you're buying a 25hp tractor only to eliminate emissions, but in reality what you need is a 40-50hp tractor for the work and attachments you have, how is that a good idea? you'll be back trading in and trading up in hp before you know it.

Buy the best fit of equipment for the work you need done, and hang all this worry and wort about the emissions stuff. Most folks have no trouble at all with theirs. Just run it like you're supposed to, keep the rpms up, and keep the filter hot.

Exactly! Buy the tractor that best suits what you NEED and be willing to WORK it. Buying a 50 HP tractor to pull the kids around in their wagon will ensure that the tractor sits at the dealer getting repaired.

 

[Sgt Slag]

Well, regarding DPF's, Mahindra does not use them on the majority of their tractors. From a vendor site:

IS IT TRUE THAT MAHINDRA TRACTORS DON’T HAVE A DPF (DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER)?​

Nearly all of Mahindra’s tractor models in their Compact Utility (series 1600, 2600, 3600, and 4500) and Utility (series 5500, 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000) lineups do not have diesel particulate filters. This is because Mahindra’s mCRD engine eliminates the need for a DPF and never requires high-temperature burn-offs, which is a maintenance task that often gets forgotten by owners and tractor operators.


Might be worth considering. The series listed above, run the gamut from 26 HP to 71 HP tractors (1600 - 6000 series). Cheers!

 

[ruffdog]

Well, regarding DPF's, Mahindra does not use them on the majority of their tractors. From a vendor site:

IS IT TRUE THAT MAHINDRA TRACTORS DON’T HAVE A DPF (DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER)?​

Nearly all of Mahindra’s tractor models in their Compact Utility (series 1600, 2600, 3600, and 4500) and Utility (series 5500, 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000) lineups do not have diesel particulate filters. This is because Mahindra’s mCRD engine eliminates the need for a DPF and never requires high-temperature burn-offs, which is a maintenance task that often gets forgotten by owners and tractor operators.


Might be worth considering. The series listed above, run the gamut from 26 HP to 71 HP tractors (1600 - 6000 series). Cheers!

There are different ways to achieve T4 and Mahindra chose to use a bunch of EGR.

Mahindra mCRD Diesel Technology | Tractor News

 

[Rdrcr]

^^^^
And the overuse of EGR typically results in a massive buildup of carbon and soot over time in diesel engines negatively impacting engine performance and efficiency.

Mike

 

[RB5]

^^^^
And the overuse of EGR typically results in a massive buildup of carbon and soot over time in diesel engines negatively impacting engine performance and efficiency.

Mike

I seem to recall Ford had issues with one of the versions of the Powerstroke. A friend of mine said you had to remove the egr and they were fine after that.

 

[Sgt Slag]

Considering Mahindra's size 15 footprint in the global tractor market (top tractor seller in the world, by volume of units sold), I don't see this as an issue. That article was published in 2014. Mahindra business has not been impacted by their EGR T4 engine designs yet, in nine years...

Their smaller engines are made by Yanmar, and they have a platinum reputation within the industry. Mahindra still offers seven years on the power train warranty.

Say what you will, but Mahindra's market success, globally, is hard to argue against. If Mahindra tractors, and their EGR T4 engines, were garbage, the global market would chase after other brands. Cheers!

 

[jyoutz]

I seem to recall Ford had issues with one of the versions of the Powerstroke. A friend of mine said you had to remove the egr and they were fine after that.

Ford has had issues with every model of powerstroke except for the original IH 7.4L.