Buying Advice Diesel smog emission stuff?

[Rich_Z]

When I first started thinking about buying my first tractor, my thoughts were to limit my search to all tractors with less than 25 or 26 (number varies, it seems) horsepower in order to avoid buying a new tractor with government dictated smog emission controls to have to deal with. Some people claim that they can be a real pain. Others are saying they are no big deal. So, what is the TRUTH?

Are some brands better than others in this department? I have been focused on probably buying a Kioti brand tractor, particularly the CK20SE CAB series, in which it appears all the models are pretty much identical except for the amount of horsepower the engine will put out. I guess it is a matter mostly of tuning and air/fuel control of that diesel engine making the difference. So I can choose to buy the 24.5 horsepower version, or perhaps the two other models with higher engine ratings (34.9 and 39.6 hp respectively), but having the onerous smog emission complexities attached.

Is this a big deal, or not? Headache, or not? Is it really something I should allow to influence my decision about what to buy?

Of course, another perspective of looking at this is: Will the difference of just 10.4 and 15.1 horsepower even worth fretting over and just buy the 24.5 horsepower version and be done with it?

 

[Tractorable]

I suppose it depends on what kinda guy you are. There are those who will go out of their way to buy a gear drive L2501 with live PTO and R-1 tires because “ain’t got none of that emissions, turbo, or fancy hydromatic transmission junk that’s gonna break on me”. Sure, it’ll still be running after we’re all dead but you pay a cost in convenience and the benefits of technology.

Then there are those who have accepted technology, accepted that millions of turbos on diesels have been reliably running for many decades, accepted that hydrostatic transmissions are convenient and reliable, and to a slightly lesser degree accepted that modern emissions systems are reliable if the operator reads the owners manual and follows instructions.

Some folks are in the middle, it’s really up to you and how much risk tolerance you have. Me personally, I’m not worried about modern emissions systems and plan on buying an over 25hp machine.

 

[5030]

My starter motor on my large frame Kubota's make more power than those tiny tractors do at the flywheel and I don't consider a hydrostat to be cutting edge technology either. In my application (farming) a hydro is the worst choice you can make because of the parasitic power loss. International tried that decades ago and had little success except with planting tractors. Tractive power to the ground is everything and a gear drive excells at that and most are many speed gearboxes and or power shift so gear changes are effortless and synchronized as well. Both of mine are 18 x 18, 18 forward and 18 in reverse and little parasitic power loss. CVT's are gaining in popularity today but tractor CVT don't have belts in them, they use a metal link chain to drive the gearbox and a computer to effect range changes.

 

[dodge man]

I’d say get what you need. If 25hp is enough or close, get one that doesn’t have a lot of emissions equipment. On the other hand if you need something like 35hp for it’s power and size that’s what I’d get and just live with the emissions equipment.

 

[2manyrocks]

The devil is in the details.

Evidently, the new emissions systems like to be run at higher RPMs than the older tractors. then there comes a point where the system says the tractor has to be run 20 minutes at some high RPM to burn off the particulates in the emission system filter. Some have said the tractor will go into limp mode if the emissions system isn't treated like it expects to be treated.

Running the tractor at low RPM and not managing the specific emissions system like the manual calls for may lead to problems.

{Seems pretty stupid IMO to have to run a tractor to get it hot enough to burn off particulates. Why don't they have some kind of removable particulate filter that the owner could service separately and replace on the tractor? }

Some TYM owners will say certain TYM models like the T474 have an advantage because the fuel rail on the 47hp kukje engine is all mechanical and relies on no electronics. They will also say that the emissions system is an add on system that is separate from the engine itself.

How a particular machine deals with particulates is something to look into as a part of your buying decision.

I am not familiar enough with Kioti or other brands to be able to say anything useful about their fuel delivery systems or how they deal with particulate emissions.

Whether you will be satisfied with 25hp depends on your use case. An HST would be nice for the woods. A cab would be nice for the AC. Both eat available HP. A 25 hp tractor may be able to run a 5 foot cutter but not 6 foot in most cases. If you plan to work lifting heavy logs or having to cut a lot of property, you may want at least 35 hp if not more.

edit: if nearly all of your use case will be puttering around in the woods at low speed, I would ask if you will be running at a sufficiently high RPM to burn off particulates or the system is going to want to go into burn off mode more in order to compensate? I am not personally knowledgeable about this and wonder what others who know more would say.

 

[5030]

If I'm not mistaken, if you stay under 99 pto horsepower, DEF injection is not required, just a DPF or selective catalyst reduction and the DPF filter is removable, in fact it has to be renewed after so many regens. Problem is, the EPA states that the residue contained inside the DPF is considered a hazardous substance and must be removed and sent to a hazardous waste landfill. I never knew incinerated carbon was hazardous but what do I know. My rub with T4 final engines is the have to renew the DPF cannister. They ain't cheap so some owner (original or successive) gets stuck with the renewal bill.

 

[jeff9366]

T-B-N ARCHIVE:

Compact Tractor Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) Version 2.0

Stricter Tier IV off-road diesel engine emission reduction standards phased in dealer tractor inventory during 2009 - 2012, impacting tractor prices. Tier IV emission standards require tractor manufacturers to add or revise pollution reduction technology on new tractors generating over 19 kW...

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[Too many Kubotas]

If I'm not mistaken, if you stay under 99 pto horsepower, DEF injection is not required, just a DPF or selective catalyst reduction and the DPF filter is removable, in fact it has to be renewed after so many regens.

In the pickup world it seems like DEF solved a few issues.

If I had a tractor with emissions I'd prefer if it had DEF and kept itself clean. Otherwise I'd look at eliminating the system.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

No matter what HP tractor you get it still has to meet today's emission standard's, 25 hp - 75 hp mostly have DPF filters and no DEF fluid, once you get over 75 hp you get into DEF fluid as well, but for what you are looking at IMO yes 15 hp can make a huge difference, especially with PTO attached implements. Lastly everybody's idea of what size tractor is needed is different, you may think that clearing a 100 yard stretch of brush and small saplings with a 25 hp tractor on your property is a days work while the next guy may feel if he didn't get an acre done with his 100 hp tractor a day he hasn't done anything, for a homeowner IMO with a 35 hp tractor he can use a 6' bush hog and should be able to move most logs and brush. Personally I hate the DEF fluid the DPF filters but they are probably here to stay and manufacturers have made them more and more reliable, I have a Kubota skid steer that regen's about every 35 to 40 hours but I keep right on working and don't pay it any mind.

 

[Rdrcr]

First consideration should be tractor weight. How much weight do you need to accomplish the tasks/jobs that are required. Then, consider HP/PTO HP. If you can get away with a 25HP sized tractor… without the additional emissions equipment, great! Go that route. But, if you need a larger tractor, DPF and/or DEF is going to be your reality if buying new.

Mike

 

[Rich_Z]

One reason I am heavily considering the Kioti CK20SE series with the cab is because all three models weigh the same, and have nearly all the same dimensions. 3,397 lbs. And they are not so wide that any one of them would give me headaches trying to get between the trees on my property. 54.53 inches.

So I need to find out prices to see how much the higher horsepower models will cost and figure if one of those would be worthwhile for the modest HP gains even with this emission stuff involved.

 

[Williy]

There's one person on here that keeps repeating I would never have
a hydro tractor the lost of hp is too high. Most people on here could
care less as a gear tractor is almost worthless for what they want!
Technology has come a long ways and hydro's are more efficient than
they were years ago also who would want to clutch and shift when you
can just step on a pedal and go forward or backward?????!

When I have to regen I am usually running near the rpm's required to
regen and I don't stop just to regen I keep working.
IMHO if you have to regen quite often I would check your thermostat
and change it to 200 degree's F.

willy

 

[jyoutz]

My Kubota MX tractor regenerates every 60-75 hours. In fact it did so today at 75 hours since the previous regeneration. The process took about 15 minutes and the exhaust has a bit of smell during regeneration. I just raised the RPMs and kept working.

 

[jeff9366]

One reason I am heavily considering the Kioti CK20SE series with the cab. Weight with cab = 3,397 lbs.

3,397 pound bare tractor weight may be too heavy for 25-horsepower to move with a ground contact implement in use or ascending hills. Consider that cab air-conditioning will absorb 3-4-horsepower when operating.

If you add a 700-pound Backhoe you will be way beyond a reasonable weight for a 25-horsepower tractor to motivate.

For 5,197 pound operating weight combination (Cab tractor w/AC + 1,100 pound FEL + 700 pound Backhoe) I recommend minimum 40-horsepower.

 

[2manyrocks]

Going from 25 to 35 doesn’t seem like much, but in reality it is a substantial jump in useable Hp when so much of the 25 hp is used to move the tractor. It is similar in a rough sense to the difference in speed going from 25hp to 35 hp on a boat.

Has anyone said what they expect the regen process experience to be if the tractor is operated in the woods at low rpm? I would think it would be better to stay in low range and keep the rpm up?

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

Rich,

You should get a tractor that can do the work and tasks you want to do, in the time you want to do it in.

If you're buying a 25hp tractor only to eliminate emissions, but in reality what you need is a 40-50hp tractor for the work and attachments you have, how is that a good idea? you'll be back trading in and trading up in hp before you know it.

Buy the best fit of equipment for the work you need done, and hang all this worry and wort about the emissions stuff. Most folks have no trouble at all with theirs. Just run it like you're supposed to, keep the rpms up, and keep the filter hot.

Easy for me to say, I know. I took my DPF filter off (it "fell off", if anyone asks). Not many system designs will allow this. My problems were cold weather related.

DEF fluid doesn't become mandatory until you cross 75hp.

 

[2manyrocks]

I own a 20hp Terramite backhoe powered by a v twin Kohler gas engine that has a hydraulic propulsion system. It struggles on hills, but has enough power to run the backhoe. It does not have the torque of a diesel engine.

I've never operated a 25hp diesel cab HST backhoe, but I would anticipate there would be enough power to run the backhoe when the tractor is stationary. However, I would anticipate that you'd feel the limitation of 25hp transporting a full load of dirt in the front end loader bucket. I can't say for certain, but would expect it could be done in low range at low speed, but I think 35hp would make a noticeable difference.

 

[Rdrcr]

Going from 25 to 35 doesn’t seem like much, but in reality it is a substantial jump in useable Hp when so much of the 25 hp is used to move the tractor. It is similar in a rough sense to the difference in speed going from 25hp to 35 hp on a boat.

Has anyone said what they expect the regen process experience to be if the tractor is operated in the woods at low rpm? I would think it would be better to stay in low range and keep the rpm up?

I can tell you from experience with my L2501 HST, going from 25 HP stock, to 44.1 HP with the Turbo Kit, was a significant improvement in operating performance. Luckily, no regen or DPF for me.

Mike

 

[Williy]

I have no problem operating a backhoe or any equipment that
I have with 34 HP.with cab and a/c on

willy

 

[Too many Kubotas]

I've never operated a 25hp diesel cab HST backhoe, but I would anticipate there would be enough power to run the backhoe when the tractor is stationary. However, I would anticipate that you'd feel the limitation of 25hp transporting a full load of dirt in the front end loader bucket.

Our BX25D does indeed have enough power to operate the backhoe. Sort of.

On the occasions I use it, the times that the power is lacking are far fewer than that the little thing doesn't weigh enough to use the power.

And the tiny loader bucket holds so little than power isn't an issue then, either.

In my case it isn't that the BX25D lacks power as much as that the operator (me) lacks the patience to spend all the extra time necessary to complete even small jobs.

That's a size thing, more so than a horsepower thing.