A newbies DIY solar install

   / A newbies DIY solar install #81  
Are you sure about your scenario, if you solar is producing and your using it your grid meter would not be turning.

Yes the best way to use net metering solar is to use what you are producing or charging batteries during the day.

Mine is like $0.11 savings when using solar and $.04 when spinning meter backwards.

Look for other public monies that might be available in your county or state grants, my state grant saved me another 40%.

Cost of my system was 27K with 9K federal tax rebate and 11K IL Shines grant. My electric bill has been saving or is about $200 a month lower before solar install. My payback is at 3 years.

Dave
Yes I was sure. IF you are using your solar electric....their meter isnt spinning. Meaning for every kwh you make and use is saving one kwh at retail rate from them. (net metering).

The problem I was eluding to was during the day when Im not using much electric and the panels are pumping a ton out....Im selling that electric for $0.05/kwh. Then come home at night when the sun is down and consume electric....spin their meter at the tune of $0.14/kwh. There is no meter to spin backwards. There is two meters....theirs and yours. IF yours spins, its putting back on the grid at the 5 cents. IF theirs spins you are buying it for 14 cents.

The only way to get a "net metering effect" is to use your electric BEFORE it goes to the grid...hence the time of day when you consume power became important.

Thats how it has always been with my power company. However...they seem to have made some changes (See my previous post) that they are doing a limited net metering now. So some phone calls to see if I am in an area that qualifies is in order. Because they ultimately have the right to refuse a gridtied system or net metering.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #83  
Yeah Jasper, it's a solid concept. I have an early reservation in on the electric F150 Lightning, and am considering stretching my funds to buy a base model depending on what the government does with EV subsidies before I would be paying for it. The battery is huge and could power my house for a few days during an extended outage, no problem.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install
  • Thread Starter
#84  
Everytime solar comes up I always get the bug to start researching and see whats out there, and if there have been any major changes since last time I decided to look.

Did you end up doing the install yourself?

I know earlier you were talking about the whole system being in the ~$0.75/watt price range. Did you still end at or near that?

I have looked at alot of the DIY kits and it seems everything is double that. Like 24.9k "kits" are $35k-$40k just for the kit.

I average 1800kwh/month. With the three coldest months, jan-mar being ~2300. And as low as 1300 spring and fall. So if you believe the "monthly output" advertisement. Id be looking for a 12.5kw system. but all I am seeing is $20k+

There are alot of companies that advertise for installing solar....no money down....bad credit, etc. And there are alot of websites selling DIY kits. Kinda seems a nightmare separating the wheat from the chaff to know what is a good deal and want is marketing to make someone else rich. Like its hard to know who/what to trust when reading about solar.
Install was done myself. I greatly underestimated the price of all of the additional components (3" galv pipe, disconnects, wire, conduit, etc). Conduit really surprised me on how much 2.5" pvc ran. All in and after the federal tax rebate I ended up at .93/cents a watt. Still pretty good and puts my payback at around the end of year 5. I ordered the panels, inverters, rapid shutdowns, racking system rails and components through thepowerstore.com Sourced my 3" galvanized pipe, service panel, disconnects, wire, locally.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install
  • Thread Starter
#85  
img_0018-jpg.723955

:sick: 🤮 🤮 🤮

Was it your cousins fault, or did he have it all installed by someone? What a gut punch.
His fault. He did a self install same as I did. I even loaned him my ft/lb and inch/lb torque wrenches and gave him the iron ridge specs for all of the torque values. Not sure how he missed that.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #86  
Im not too keen on batteries. If I did anything it would be grid tie and grid tie alone.

I do have a bit of renewed interest in solar, and need to call the power company because it seems they have made some changes with their net metering policy.

IT seems they DO offer net metering in a limited way. Direct quote from them

It seems there interest is to maintain balance. Allow some of those that want solar to reap the benefits, but trying to maintain the peace by keeping everyone elses rates low as well. Literally, if EVERYONE would install solar....there would be no paying customers left to support the paychecks of the linemen and general maintenance of the grid....so I understand.

They do give an example

So it would be possible to have a $0 bill. But I would have to make enough electric for myself, as well as enough surplus every month at the avoided cost rate (~$0.05) to cover the $50 meter fee.

I have yet to try and figure how all this applies when some months I use as much as 2300 and other months as little as 1300. My average being 1800. Seems I would either be banking credits at $0.05/kwh....or not making enough electric and having to buy the difference at $0.14/kwh....ugh.

To further compound matters.....my shop is on a different meter. But same account. So dont know what if anything they could do about that. I average only about 300kwh/month at the shop.

I just need to talk to someone local, familiar with solar in this area and dealing with my power company. But circle back to who/what do you trust

They don’t pay you very much for electric. Not saying it should be different because I understand they have a lot of grid related expenses just saying that’s how it is. If you could get your energy storage bank to be half way efficient to avoid buying anything from the grid you would be better off.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #87  
I would definitely have preferred it if the economics didn't favor solar energy here, grid-tie or otherwise -- that would mean that the cost of electricity was sufficiently low that it didn't pay to have it. However, our charges are so high, that it's close to a no-brainer to have it now.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #88  
Well....(sorry for hijacking).....I made some calls to my electric company today and some disappointing news but some info to share.

For starters, I created a spreadsheet for the last 12 months. And in the last 12 months I have used 21335 kwh and my total bill for the year was $2394.

Average that out and I arrive at 1650kwh per month usage. So that would be my "target" to install a system that would generate that per month.

Issue ONE is fluctuation. I have had months as low as 1300kwh, and months as high as 2300kwh. So in the cold winter months I would fall ~500kwh short of what I need with a system designed for 1780kwh/month. And in other months Id be making a ~500kwh surplus. The problem is the surplus is NOT a 1:1 credit. Any surplus above and beyond a given months bill is credited at $0.021/kwh.

So using my spreadsheet.....and based on the last 12 months...6 months I would have a surplus totaling 1980kwh....crediting me $41.58. But the other 6 months Id have ~1955kwh shortage....that I would have to purchase....at $0.109/kwh. OR a total of $213. So even though I make slightly more than I would use in a calendar year....just based on fluctuation.....Id be $171.42 in the hole to buy electric.

Now all of this sounds fine....except.....there is a $57 per month solar charge that will NEVER go away no matter how much solar I make or credits I build. This is a fixed cost and is actually $10/month higher than the current service charge simply for having solar.

So add in $57 x 12 months.....thats $684/month.

In summary....to install a solar capable of producing 100% of the electric I need (but just not at the right time)....I would still owe $855/year.

So....my maximum "net" savings is only a tad over $1500/year. So unless I can install a 12kw system for under $15k....Im still exceeding a 10 year ROI.

And then there is my shop, which is on a separate meter. I only use ~300kwh/month down there. And That was one of my questions to the power company is if that is treated totally separate. And yes it is. And since my normal bill down there is only ~$70-$80 a month......going to solar down there (since it cannot be combined with the house) would only stand to save me $20-$25/month since I would STILL have a $57 bill no matter what. Saving $300/year on a $5000 solar install isnt great ROI either
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install
  • Thread Starter
#89  
Well....(sorry for hijacking).....I made some calls to my electric company today and some disappointing news but some info to share.

For starters, I created a spreadsheet for the last 12 months. And in the last 12 months I have used 21335 kwh and my total bill for the year was $2394.

Average that out and I arrive at 1650kwh per month usage. So that would be my "target" to install a system that would generate that per month.

Issue ONE is fluctuation. I have had months as low as 1300kwh, and months as high as 2300kwh. So in the cold winter months I would fall ~500kwh short of what I need with a system designed for 1780kwh/month. And in other months Id be making a ~500kwh surplus. The problem is the surplus is NOT a 1:1 credit. Any surplus above and beyond a given months bill is credited at $0.021/kwh.

So using my spreadsheet.....and based on the last 12 months...6 months I would have a surplus totaling 1980kwh....crediting me $41.58. But the other 6 months Id have ~1955kwh shortage....that I would have to purchase....at $0.109/kwh. OR a total of $213. So even though I make slightly more than I would use in a calendar year....just based on fluctuation.....Id be $171.42 in the hole to buy electric.

Now all of this sounds fine....except.....there is a $57 per month solar charge that will NEVER go away no matter how much solar I make or credits I build. This is a fixed cost and is actually $10/month higher than the current service charge simply for having solar.

So add in $57 x 12 months.....thats $684/month.

In summary....to install a solar capable of producing 100% of the electric I need (but just not at the right time)....I would still owe $855/year.

So....my maximum "net" savings is only a tad over $1500/year. So unless I can install a 12kw system for under $15k....Im still exceeding a 10 year ROI.

And then there is my shop, which is on a separate meter. I only use ~300kwh/month down there. And That was one of my questions to the power company is if that is treated totally separate. And yes it is. And since my normal bill down there is only ~$70-$80 a month......going to solar down there (since it cannot be combined with the house) would only stand to save me $20-$25/month since I would STILL have a $57 bill no matter what. Saving $300/year on a $5000 solar install isnt great ROI either
Your $684/year should actually be $120 I would think as solar only ads $10/month. Sounds like your paying $47/month already solar or no solar.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #90  
Your $684/year should actually be $120 I would think as solar only ads $10/month. Sounds like your paying $47/month already solar or no solar.
Yes, solar only adds $10/month....but I was figuring the total charge.

My figures were Dec 20 to Nov 21.

In those 12 months I used 21335 kwh.....and I paid $2394 for that.

IF I had a solar installed in those SAME 12 months....capable of averaging 1780kwh/month.....I would have STILL paid $684 ($57x12) plus the $171 bought from the power company on the months I would have been short

The only way NOT to be short would be size the system bigger, to handle the peak months....then give then the surplus. But there is NO WAY to get around paying them the $684 per year no matter what.

Thus....I only stand to save ~$1500/year with a 12-13kw system by my math.

So for the purpose of how I have if figured....I need to account for the WHOLE $57 per month...not just the increase of $10/month since the $47 I am already paying was already figured in my yearly total of $2394
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install
  • Thread Starter
#91  
Yes, solar only adds $10/month....but I was figuring the total charge.

My figures were Dec 20 to Nov 21.

In those 12 months I used 21335 kwh.....and I paid $2394 for that.

IF I had a solar installed in those SAME 12 months....capable of averaging 1780kwh/month.....I would have STILL paid $684 ($57x12) plus the $171 bought from the power company on the months I would have been short

The only way NOT to be short would be size the system bigger, to handle the peak months....then give then the surplus. But there is NO WAY to get around paying them the $684 per year no matter what.

Thus....I only stand to save ~$1500/year with a 12-13kw system by my math.

So for the purpose of how I have if figured....I need to account for the WHOLE $57 per month...not just the increase of $10/month since the $47 I am already paying was already figured in my yearly total of $2394
Looking at the cost of all of my components if you did everything yourself you could probably do a 12.5kw system between $17k and $18k before federal tax rebates. About $12.5k to $13.3k after rebate of 23% for 2022.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #92  
Looking at the cost of all of my components if you did everything yourself you could probably do a 12.5kw system between $17k and $18k before federal tax rebates. About $12.5k to $13.3k after rebate of 23% for 2022.
So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install
  • Thread Starter
#93  
So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude
Just fyi I have two separate 25 kw systems on my wedding venue as well. My panels on the building are west facing where these on the house face south. This time of year one 25kw system on the building produces only 65 to 70% of what my home is producing.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install
  • Thread Starter
#94  
As far as output my estimate was 36,800 kwh annually. So far my panels have just slightly outperformed estimates. December estimate is 2,180.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #95  
So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude
My system is 10.24kW DC, 7.68kW AC; my array is oriented to 20 degrees west of south, and is approximately at 39N; if I recall it's got a 20 degree elevation - we're set up for best afternoon sun we can get in the summer (by far our peak use time). We have great morning & daytime sun at the location, but get shadowed at latest by 6:45PM in the summer (and much earlier in the winter) because of a tall hill.

I provide the above info about the site because all of that strongly affects the energy production. If your array is on the roof of a house, you're typically constrained to the roof's orientation and pitch.

Here's the pertinent part of my first year's report (system came on-line during Jan 2021, so I left that out, and we're only partway into Dec 2021, so I left that out too):
Screenshot from 2021-12-09 11-09-38.png
pvwatts calc ->:
Screenshot from 2021-12-09 11-41-14.png


The weather here in the summer is typically clear blue sky with clouds here and there, but almost no "weather"; winter is typically gray and often pretty dark.
August was exceptionally smoky here - enough to drop the local temperatures significantly and undoubtedly affecting solar production.

I'd expect Ohio winter production to be meager with almost any size array.

If you have space, I'd go ground mount, because you're more likely to be able to get as much panel space as you want without having to buy the latest greatest most expensive panels (drop down a tier and buy an extra panel), and there's no chance you're going to compromise your roof by attaching mounts to it.
I used a heavy enough cable between my array and the mains that I can add another 5kW array and not change any components in the system other than a single circuit breaker (I'd have to add another breaker at the array combiner box, plus the 5kW array & mount & cable from that new array to the combiner box - but nothing from the combiner box onwards). I could've *just* put 10kW on my house, but it would've been oriented less efficiently and definitely have no 5kW upgrade path - though there would not have been a 500 foot trench & cable from the array to the mains, either.

Setting up the ground mount is trivial to the typical TBN'er, and gives you some good opportunities to play with the tractor (for footings & cable trench).
Setting up the solar panels and plugging everything together is like playing with legos.
There's a small amount of wiring that some people may prefer to leave to an electrician; I got lucky and the local utility was replacing our local power pole (weather, time and woodpeckers pretty much destroyed it) and had our power out for a few hours and that's when I wired our transfer switch (which involved taking the mains input and sending that to the switch, and attaching the house feed wire instead to the switch); I was going to have an electrician handle that specific task if the utility hadn't intervened so conveniently.

Edit: I added for comparison the pvwatts calculator's predicted output next to my system's report. Matches pretty well. (Thanks to @Roric for that link)
 
Last edited:
   / A newbies DIY solar install #96  
So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude
go to pvwatts.nrel/pvwatts.php for a look at solar production
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #97  
The PVwatts site shows my array is supposed to produce 9500kwh per year.
7500 watts of panels (20x375) roof mounted 19 degree roof tilt, south facing.
In the 2 years I have been producing I average 9105kwh per year.
We use about 9000 per year. We have snow cover from Dec. thru Feb. or more
each year.

As you can see, the utility you are connecting to, if you are grid tied, makes alot
of the difference in the payback. If you self-install, do your homework first. There
can be a chance to avoid headaches that way.

regards, R
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #98  
My system is 10.24kW DC, 7.68kW AC; my array is oriented to 20 degrees west of south, and is approximately at 39N; if I recall it's got a 20 degree elevation - we're set up for best afternoon sun we can get in the summer (by far our peak use time). We have great morning & daytime sun at the location, but get shadowed at latest by 6:45PM in the summer (and much earlier in the winter) because of a tall hill.

I provide the above info about the site because all of that strongly affects the energy production. If your array is on the roof of a house, you're typically constrained to the roof's orientation and pitch.

Here's the pertinent part of my first year's report (system came on-line during Jan 2021, so I left that out, and we're only partway into Dec 2021, so I left that out too):
View attachment 724345
The weather here in the summer is typically clear blue sky with clouds here and there, but almost no "weather"; winter is typically gray and often pretty dark.
August was exceptionally smoky here - enough to drop the local temperatures significantly and undoubtedly affecting solar production.

I'd expect Ohio winter production to be meager with almost any size array.

If you have space, I'd go ground mount, because you're more likely to be able to get as much panel space as you want without having to buy the latest greatest most expensive panels (drop down a tier and buy an extra panel), and there's no chance you're going to compromise your roof by attaching mounts to it.
I used a heavy enough cable between my array and the mains that I can add another 5kW array and not change any components in the system other than a single circuit breaker (I'd have to add another breaker at the array combiner box, plus the 5kW array & mount & cable from that new array to the combiner box - but nothing from the combiner box onwards). I could've *just* put 10kW on my house, but it would've been oriented less efficiently and definitely have no 5kW upgrade path - though there would not have been a 500 foot trench & cable from the array to the mains, either.

Setting up the ground mount is trivial to the typical TBN'er, and gives you some good opportunities to play with the tractor (for footings & cable trench).
Setting up the solar panels and plugging everything together is like playing with legos.
There's a small amount of wiring that some people may prefer to leave to an electrician; I got lucky and the local utility was replacing our local power pole (weather, time and woodpeckers pretty much destroyed it) and had our power out for a few hours and that's when I wired our transfer switch (which involved taking the mains input and sending that to the switch, and attaching the house feed wire instead to the switch); I was going to have an electrician handle that specific task if the utility hadn't intervened so conveniently.
Thats actually pretty good numbers for the 10.24kw system.

This seems like shopping online specs for tractors and lift capacities.

So many different numbers, all different....dont really know what is real world. The cost of miscalculating on sizing is great. Too small and I dont get much benefit. But too big and Im giving excess power away for free.

over 3 years, I have averaged 21000-22000kwh per year usage. Here is a quick look at my usage
Dec-May 2019 1993kwh average
Jun-Nov 2019 1435kwh average
Dec-May 2020 2092kwh average
Jun-Nov 2020 1473kwh average
Dec-May 2021 2036 kwh average
Jun-Nov 2021 1507 kwh average

I am now questioning the efficiency of a 12kw system that "claims" ~1800kwh monthly output. Seems I may fall even shorter than expected in winter. Which would further diminish my returns. Lots of hypotheticals.....but IF such a system would only produce ~1800kwh for 6 months out of the year....but those other 6 months drop to a abysmal average of 1000kwh per month...now I am looking at still owing the electric company ~$1330/year. So now I am down to only saving $1000/year on a $15k system.

I wish I understood more about the sizing and real world performance IN MY AREA.

I am waiting on a call back from an installer in this area to see what he suggests for sizing.

Ultimately, the issue becomes the panels are capable of producing the MOST energy when I dont need it. And produce the LEAST energy when I need it the most.

Seems the whole concept of solar would be great somewhere like florida or arizone. When the sun is hot and beating down is when you jack up the AC. Not so much here in ohio. AC is a minor electric draw for me. Need the most juice when its a cold windy February night and the panels aint doing squat...lol
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #99  
The PVwatts site shows my array is supposed to produce 9500kwh per year.
7500 watts of panels (20x375) roof mounted 19 degree roof tilt, south facing.
In the 2 years I have been producing I average 9105kwh per year.
We use about 9000 per year. We have snow cover from Dec. thru Feb. or more
each year.

As you can see, the utility you are connecting to, if you are grid tied, makes alot
of the difference in the payback
. If you self-install, do your homework first. There
can be a chance to avoid headaches that way.

regards, R
YES. The rural coop's dont seem to be that generous towards solar installs and their net metering.

IE: Currently I pay $0.0266 for distrubution and ~$0.08 for generation and transmission PLUS a flat $47.75 service fee.

Going to solar....any excess I make I get credited LESS than distribution....$0.0210/kwh. Then they bump service fee up to $57....and no amount of excess production will ever offset the $57. And there is even language on their website that indicates if your system makes more than you consume you "may not be eligible for net metering" and with language like
In the exceedingly unlikely case that the sun shines more excessively than typical for our region, net-metered accounts will not be eligible for reimbursements

Kinda doesnt give one a warm and fuzzy feeling to want to go solar. After talking to them in person, and reading all the literature they have....I get the impression they DONT want people to install these larger solar systems. Rather they just want people to install smaller 2-3kw systems to maybe offset $20-$30 a month. But beyond that they dont get too kind with their pricing/net metering structuring.

6-10 year payback would be awesome. Sign me up and ill write the check.

But this seams like a big headache and hassle.....drop $15k only to lower my bill by ~$85/month. If they really arent too keen on solar and wanting people to install these larger systems....im inclined to oblige them.
 
   / A newbies DIY solar install #100  
Well, @LD1 our five year payback comes with $0.50/kWh power...Careful what you wish for.
 

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