How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete?

[check]

527 years from today based on known oil reserves and projected population growth.

Works for me!

 

[MossRoad]

LOL. Wyoming PBS is heavily funded from entities outside of Wyoming along with the Powder River Resource council that do not want coal as an energy source even if it met EPA standards.

LOL? Is there any evidence the coal plant has been refurbished, and if so, by who?

 

[Snobdds]

Post 294.

 

[PuffyC]

I have beach front property too...

Yeah, I know nobody ever really changes their opinions but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless.

Anything pro coal and big tech is heavily scrubbed of internet things. I guess a person has to be on the ground to know what's happening.

Are you suggesting there’s a global conspiracy by someone (some group?) who‘s pulling down any internet page that has news or data that is favorable to coal and big tech? Now you have me intrigued, tell me more.

 

[MossRoad]

Post 294.

Where in post 294 or the link in that post does it say that particular coal plant was refurbished?

 

[Snobdds]

Yeah, I know nobody ever really changes their opinions but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless.


Are you suggesting there’s a global conspiracy by someone (some group?) who‘s pulling down any internet page that has news or data that is favorable to coal and big tech? Now you have me intrigued, tell me more.

Google's algorithm is very biased towards only promoting green energy search results. Try it for yourself.

 

[Snobdds]

Where in post 294 or the link in that post does it say that particular coal plant was refurbished?

I guess one needs to understand that carbon capture is new and therefore updates to a plant for those updates would require some refurbishing.

I guess you want something in black and white, with a sentence that says, we refurbished on this date.

I have nothing to show that is in black and white, just some common sense about new tech on old power plants.

 

[PuffyC]

Google's algorithm is very biased towards only promoting green energy search results. Try it for yourself.

I‘m familiar with the workings of search algorithms - unfortunately for me I have to sit through two meetings every week discussing just that (not Google’s). But that’s OK, I was really more interested in the conspiracy angle anyway

 

[Snobdds]

I‘m familiar with the workings of search algorithms - unfortunately for me I have to sit through two meetings every week discussing just that (not Google’s). But that’s OK, I was really more interested in the conspiracy angle anyway

Yeah, the bait you were offering was not that enticing. Might need to hit up the bait shop for some new lures.

 

[MossRoad]

I guess one needs to understand that carbon capture is new and therefore updates to a plant for those updates would require some refurbishing.

I guess you want something in black and white, with a sentence that says, we refurbished on this date.

I have nothing to show that is in black and white, just some common sense about new tech on old power plants.

I know that carbon capture is relatively new, and so are the environmental and financial incentives to do it. I'd like to read up on the technology.

You said that Amazon paid to have that coal plant refurbished, yet the latest dated material I could find was January of this year, just 4 months old, and it says plans are still not finalized from the companies that want to do the carbon capture (non of them Amazon), and it's looking like it won't be economically feasible because the carbon dioxide that they want that coal plant to generate to use to extract oil will still cost more than carbon dioxide that they can get elsewhere, like natural gas fired plants. It doesn't appear that anyone has invested anything in that plant as of January. The plant is still slated to be closed in 2027 as of January.

So yes, I'd like to see stuff in black and white so I can read it myself, rather than "I've heard" from 3rd parties. I'm curious by nature.

Personally, I'd like to see coal, solar, wind, and hydro all dumped for nuclear. That will never happen, in my opinion (not documented fact), because you could replace thousands of the current power plants with just hundreds of nuclear plants. That would mean a reduction in work force at the closed power plants, a reduction of work force at fossil fuel facilities that supply those plants, a loss of jobs in solar and wind. Besides the job losses, there'd be big oil and gas that would lose out on sales, as well as the power companies that own their own fossil fuel fields. Despite the overall gain in cost savings and environmental quality by cutting fossil fuels for power generation, it will never happen in our lifetimes.

 

[airbiscuit]

I'm okay with nuclear also, provided they have a safe way to store nuclear waste. NIMBY gets in the way for that.

 

[Snobdds]

I know that carbon capture is relatively new, and so are the environmental and financial incentives to do it. I'd like to read up on the technology.

You said that Amazon paid to have that coal plant refurbished, yet the latest dated material I could find was January of this year, just 4 months old, and it says plans are still not finalized from the companies that want to do the carbon capture (non of them Amazon), and it's looking like it won't be economically feasible because the carbon dioxide that they want that coal plant to generate to use to extract oil will still cost more than carbon dioxide that they can get elsewhere, like natural gas fired plants. It doesn't appear that anyone has invested anything in that plant as of January. The plant is still slated to be closed in 2027 as of January.

So yes, I'd like to see stuff in black and white so I can read it myself, rather than "I've heard" from 3rd parties. I'm curious by nature.

Personally, I'd like to see coal, solar, wind, and hydro all dumped for nuclear. That will never happen, in my opinion (not documented fact), because you could replace thousands of the current power plants with just hundreds of nuclear plants. That would mean a reduction in work force at the closed power plants, a reduction of work force at fossil fuel facilities that supply those plants, a loss of jobs in solar and wind. Besides the job losses, there'd be big oil and gas that would lose out on sales, as well as the power companies that own their own fossil fuel fields. Despite the overall gain in cost savings and environmental quality by cutting fossil fuels for power generation, it will never happen in our lifetimes.

I doubt I will be able to show you from a link of this fact. You can be curious, I am that type too, but understand the realities here.

There is a huge need for electricity to run a business that is a heavy power consumer.
They are set up in a state that has the cheapest power in the country.
They have partnered to buy all capacity from a power plant that was left for dead a few years ago.
The new/old plant somehow got a lot of money to purchase very expensive new tech that captures carbon emissions.
High capacity electric lines from the old plant directly to the new sub stations. The current grid did not have the capacity to provide the power needed.



I am pretty aware of what is going on in my state, you should trust some local advice and consent.

 

[CaptFerd]

Let me know if this is the wrong place to put this, but IMHO, the advantages of electric powered tractors in the smaller sizes (under, say, 100hp) will be so massive that even though cars are ahead in the development, new small electric tractors will begin taking over the market somewhere around 2025, and by 2030, they will have made diesels in the under 60 hp class obsolete, for the following reasons:
1. Diesel engines and the various transmissions are extremely expensive to design and produce compared to electric drive trains.
2. The limitation on continuous use of electric tractors - probably 4 hours or so at a clip before requiring recharge, on the lower priced machines won't be a problem to most small tractor owners. For those for whom it is a problem, more batteries can be put in the tractor.
3. No more lugging and pouring cans of diesel is not a nothing-burger.
4. The problem of battery weight in cars is an advantage in most tractors, as it can increase both traction and stability if properly situated.
5. Lower maintenance costs and full control of speed without many gallons of hydro oil for locomotion.
6. In tractors with loaders, portable supplemental battery packs could potentially charged while the tractor is working, and added to the loader when using PTO implements, or carried on the 3pt. when doing loader work.
7. CUTs are not really screamingly noisy but the electric tractors' quiet will be appreciated.
8. Prices will be competitive with diesels by 2025 and will be significantly less expensive than diesels by 2030.
9. An electric tractor charged from home solar or wind will appeal to the "independent" types, like most of us here.
10. If made properly, repairs to an Electric Tractor should be much easier and require much less technical knowledge than compact diesels.

Disclaimer: I am invested in electric vehicles, electric tractors and solar panel makers.

Even though hundreds of post before me I believe it is the wrong place to push a very political agenda to advance your investments. I have a neighbor that owns a $500 dollar electric push mower that is charged by a coal plant in Mosow Ohio. Takes him 3 days to cut .3 acre lot. Thats .1 acre per 24hr charge on his climate saving batteries. Ill stick to rollin coal in my diesel tractor and real beef hamburgers and my grand children will enjoy the same.

 

[MossRoad]

I doubt I will be able to show you from a link of this fact. You can be curious, I am that type too, but understand the realities here.

There is a huge need for electricity to run a business that is a heavy power consumer.
They are set up in a state that has the cheapest power in the country.
They have partnered to buy all capacity from a power plant that was left for dead a few years ago.
The new/old plant somehow got a lot of money to purchase very expensive new tech that captures carbon emissions.
High capacity electric lines from the old plant directly to the new sub stations. The current grid did not have the capacity to provide the power needed.



I am pretty aware of what is going on in my state, you should trust some local advice and consent.

I'm from the gotta see it to believe it school. Always have been, from my earliest memories. When someone tells me something of interest, the first thoughts in my head are "Really? That sounds interesting." and I start looking things up.

Other than your local advice, I find nothing to indicate that anything other than proposals have been done at the power plant, and they were not complete as of January. Before/after pics? Nope. Local news stories? Nope. Other search engines besides google reveal nothing either. I'd think there would be something in the local news regarding any work at that plant, as it's the 2nd largest employer in that area, from what I've read. With a project that important to the local economy, there would certainly be some written story in local newspapers, TV station websites, etc... I can't find any. So either I'm searching for the incorrect terms, or all search engines have been hosed on this subject (conspiracy theory), or nothing has been written about it because it hasn't happened yet.

I'd like to see it happen if it would benefit the local economy and the environment. It would be a great way to keep affordable power through coal usage until cleaner methods can be built and alternative employment/training could be found for the local population. Unfortunately, sometimes people are employed at the tail end of a dying technology, and they have to fend for themselves. It's rough. I know this. I worked at a newspaper for 30 years, on the tail end of a dying technology. Adapt or get left behind. That kind of thing.

One of my favorite paintings:

The Incredulity of Saint Thomas (Caravaggio)​

 

[Redbug]

Electric tractors...no, no, and no. Not practical in the real world.
Sub-zero temps will kill a Li-ion battery or severely diminish its capacity permanently. In the heat, you lose battery life. That 8-10 year battery life will be 4-5 years in hot places like Texas or Arizona. Replacement batteries will cost big bucks depending on the size. Even before the battery goes dead, it will lose capacity every year. Under a heavy load the motors overheat and quickly drain batteries. A diesel engine will run all day under a heavy load by just filling up the tank. No battery can replace the power density of petrol based fuels. Those batteries are not recycled and use rare natural resources better used for other things. A diesel tractor costs half as much, works twice as hard, fuels in minutes, and can be parked for years before using again. Bringing along a gas or diesel generator would be the first generation workaround for the electric tractor battery drain problem. Next generation workaround would replace the electric motor with a diesel engine.

The Ford electric pickup truck, Ha! We use our trucks for pulling trailers with loads. Good luck with that...using batteries. Maybe get 150 miles or less if going uphill with a load. Then you gotta recharge. That truck would only be good for tooling around town and making a statement. Anyone that needs a business work truck should stick with gas/diesel. Good luck Ford.

 

[Williy]

I would think if you have a lot of money to
get rid of and don't care how you spend it
an electric tractor would help you to get rid
of a lot of it! Tractor high cost, expensive
recharging unit, expensive batteries don't
last very long so replace often and they are
heavy and very costly, And in order for an
electric tractor to replace a diesel tractor you
would need about 3 electric tractors they only
last maybe 4 hours?? Just maybe in the year
2120 they will have it all figured out??????
I will never own an electric tractor period. Your
diesel tractor will last a very long time even with
repairs will be way cheaper than an electric tractor
to own and operate!

willy

 

[MiserableOldFart]

Electric tractors WILL be made less expensively than comparable diesels within four to five years, tops. Diesels are extremely sophisticated engines, and so too are hydro transmissions, which will be 100% obsolete with electric tractors. With lifts at both the front and rear ends of the tractors, auxiliary batteries can easily be made to charge while the tractor is in use, and picked up and plugged in when needed, if needed. Indeed tractor sheds with solar panel roofs will be mass produced, delivered and be assembled with - and provide power to - these same electric tractors. It will be neat fun. I'm just a little too old to participate, but I might be able to hang round long enough to see it done..

 

[Snobdds]

I'm from the gotta see it to believe it school. Always have been, from my earliest memories. When someone tells me something of interest, the first thoughts in my head are "Really? That sounds interesting." and I start looking things up.

Other than your local advice, I find nothing to indicate that anything other than proposals have been done at the power plant, and they were not complete as of January. Before/after pics? Nope. Local news stories? Nope. Other search engines besides google reveal nothing either. I'd think there would be something in the local news regarding any work at that plant, as it's the 2nd largest employer in that area, from what I've read. With a project that important to the local economy, there would certainly be some written story in local newspapers, TV station websites, etc... I can't find any. So either I'm searching for the incorrect terms, or all search engines have been hosed on this subject (conspiracy theory), or nothing has been written about it because it hasn't happened yet.

I'd like to see it happen if it would benefit the local economy and the environment. It would be a great way to keep affordable power through coal usage until cleaner methods can be built and alternative employment/training could be found for the local population. Unfortunately, sometimes people are employed at the tail end of a dying technology, and they have to fend for themselves. It's rough. I know this. I worked at a newspaper for 30 years, on the tail end of a dying technology. Adapt or get left behind. That kind of thing.

One of my favorite paintings:

The Incredulity of Saint Thomas (Caravaggio)​

While you're at it, try to find an article of an Amazon data center in Wyoming. Nobody even knew what this giant building being built was for. No signs out front, no fanfare, nothing. It's like Amazon wants to keep it's dirty little secret of how it keeps it shopping site and all the other business powered by AWS up with never an outage. Imagine if Amazon put this in Texas. They seeked out a place with stable energy and lots of fiber lines. They found it.



Just because it's not in internet land, doesn't mean it's out there.

 

[Snobdds]

Electric tractors...no, no, and no. Not practical in the real world.
Sub-zero temps will kill a Li-ion battery or severely diminish its capacity permanently. In the heat, you lose battery life. That 8-10 year battery life will be 4-5 years in hot places like Texas or Arizona. Replacement batteries will cost big bucks depending on the size. Even before the battery goes dead, it will lose capacity every year. Under a heavy load the motors overheat and quickly drain batteries. A diesel engine will run all day under a heavy load by just filling up the tank. No battery can replace the power density of petrol based fuels. Those batteries are not recycled and use rare natural resources better used for other things. A diesel tractor costs half as much, works twice as hard, fuels in minutes, and can be parked for years before using again. Bringing along a gas or diesel generator would be the first generation workaround for the electric tractor battery drain problem. Next generation workaround would replace the electric motor with a diesel engine.

The Ford electric pickup truck, Ha! We use our trucks for pulling trailers with loads. Good luck with that...using batteries. Maybe get 150 miles or less if going uphill with a load. Then you gotta recharge. That truck would only be good for tooling around town and making a statement. Anyone that needs a business work truck should stick with gas/diesel. Good luck Ford.

I tend to believe this. Even though for my state all electric vehicles and tractors would be a boom as the power needed would require coal. There is no way enough solar and wind could be harnessed to power everyone charging batteries everyday.

Tractor manufactures still need to hit price points. The battery would become the biggest cost of the tractor, therefore they would have to cheapen the rest of the machine to hit the price point. Tractors would then become cheap and disposable and the battery would become the most valuable part. Craigslist will be full of old tractors with no batteries. Yeah!

 

[airbiscuit]

The first step of a 10 Step Program is admitting you have a problem. How long will Wyoming cling to a dying industry (dirty coal)? They could pivot to renewables (especially wind energy) and the knowledge economy (they have robust broadband), but that would mean abandoning their Coal Masters.

Denial is the first stage of grief.

COAL IS A DYING INDUSTRY