How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete?

/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #321  
The first step of a 10 Step Program is admitting you have a problem. How long will Wyoming cling to a dying industry (dirty coal)? They could pivot to renewables (especially wind energy) and the knowledge economy (they have robust broadband), but that would mean abandoning their Coal Masters.

Denial is the first stage of grief.

COAL IS A DYING INDUSTRY
You do know that 60% of the electricity Wisconsin uses is derived from coal, right


Over 60 percent of Wisconsin's electricity is generated from coal. The state receives about 20 percent of its electricity from its two nuclear power plants, while natural gas provides about nine percent of the state's electricity generation.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #322  
While you're at it, try to find an article of an Amazon data center in Wyoming. Nobody even knew what this giant building being built was for. No signs out front, no fanfare, nothing. It's like Amazon wants to keep it's dirty little secret of how it keeps it shopping site and all the other business powered by AWS up with never an outage. Imagine if Amazon put this in Texas. They seeked out a place with stable energy and lots of fiber lines. They found it.



Just because it's not in internet land, doesn't mean it's out there.
Try to find the exact locations of any AWS properties. They don't make it readily available.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #323  
Try to find the exact locations of any AWS properties. They don't make it readily available.
That’s weird, when they built the center out here, it was advertised a lot. No hiding involved. Maybe there gun shy after AOC raised such a fuss about one in New York.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #324  
You do know that 60% of the electricity Wisconsin uses is derived from coal, right


Over 60 percent of Wisconsin's electricity is generated from coal. The state receives about 20 percent of its electricity from its two nuclear power plants, while natural gas provides about nine percent of the state's electricity generation.
Indiana is a high coal usage state as well. About 100 or so miles southwest of us is one of the most polluting coal plants in the country in Wheatfield, In. It was scheduled to start closing in 2023, but they've moved it up to this year.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #325  
You do know that 60% of the electricity Wisconsin uses is derived from coal, right


Over 60 percent of Wisconsin's electricity is generated from coal. The state receives about 20 percent of its electricity from its two nuclear power plants, while natural gas provides about nine percent of the state's electricity generation.
Yep - Wisconsin has been behind the curve on weaning itself from coal. Minnesota has been much better at it, but Wisconsin finally got the memo.

Alliant Energy Will Shut Down Its Last Coal Plant In Wisconsin​

Utility's Coal-Fired Facility In Columbia County To Close By End Of 2024
By Danielle Kaeding WPR
Published:
  • Tuesday, February 2, 2021, 9:35am
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #326  
What will replace it. No one is building new nuclear plants.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #327  
The first step of a 10 Step Program is admitting you have a problem. How long will Wyoming cling to a dying industry (dirty coal)? They could pivot to renewables (especially wind energy) and the knowledge economy (they have robust broadband), but that would mean abandoning their Coal Masters.

Denial is the first stage of grief.

COAL IS A DYING INDUSTRY
Not really. China is buying and burning more coal from us, everyday. Got a buddy in Pa and his company exports 100% of it's mined coal to China. Same thing in Healy, Alaska, the largest open pit coal mine in Alaska exports almost all it's coal to China. Even has a dedicated railroad to carry it to the coast where it's loaded on ships.

We try to get green and get off fossil fuel and China buys and burns it and is burying us in the process.

Going green has it's price I'd day.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #328  
Multiple times a day, every single day of the week, we have 5 mile long trains hauling coal and heading east from here.

Concurrently, multiple times a day, every single day of the week, we have 5 mile long trains hauling EMPTY coal cars back to the west of here.

Someone "hasn't gotten the memo" yet. You guys (east of us) are still burning a hellofalotta coal.

Another "inconvenient truth" for you.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #329  
Inconvenient truths

Coal mining in the United States​

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Total US coal production graph

Total US coal production, 1870–2018

Coal mining in the United States is an industry in transition. Production in 2017 was down 33% from the peak production of 1,162.7 million short tons (1,055 million metric tons) in 2006. Employment of 50,000 coal miners is down from a peak of 883,000 in 1923.[1] Generation of electricity is the largest user of coal, being used to produce 50% of electric power in 2005 and 27% in 2018.[2] The U.S. is a net exporter of coal. U.S. coal exports, for which Europe is the largest customer, peaked in 2012.[3] In 2015, the U.S. exported 7.0 percent of mined coal.[4]

Coal remains an important factor in the 25 states in which it is mined.[citation needed] According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), in 2015, Wyoming, West Virginia, Kentucky, Illinois, and Pennsylvania produced about 639 million short tons (580 million metric tons) representing 71% of total U.S. coal production in the United States.[5]

In 2015, four publicly traded US coal companies filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, including Patriot Coal Corporation, Walter Energy, and the fourth-largest Alpha Natural Resources. By January 2016, more than 25% of coal production was in bankruptcy in the United States[6] including the top two producers Peabody Energy[7][8] and Arch Coal.[6][9] When Arch Coal filed for bankruptcy protection, the price of coal had dropped 50% since 2011[10] and it was $4.5 billion in debt.[6][10] On October 5, 2016, Arch Coal emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.[11] In October 2018, Westmoreland Coal Company filed for bankruptcy protection.[12][13][14] On May 10, 2019, the third largest U.S. coal company by production, Cloud Peak Energy, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.[15] On October 29, 2019 Murray Energy filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

............................. Not the kind of news that attracts capital or investors.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #331  
From US Energy Information Administration
1622342099518.png
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #335  
Last week,

G7 countries, in an effort to stem the effects of climate change, agree to stop funding for coal power projects that emit carbon by the end of 2021​

That won't be good for coal exports.

To be clear, I don't really care if a person likes coal. I just grow weary of the "whistling past the cemetery " approach to painting coal as a commodity with a bright future. In actuality, it's like riding in a car with one after another warning lights coming on.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #336  
All these write ups and policy positions about coal being done or will be. However nothing is replacing it in the grid at the same capacity.

Down 33% from a peak sounds scarier than it seems.

There is a disconnect somewhere.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #337  
I might have mentioned this already here (in this thread), but...

Economies of Scale. We'll be pushing on a string with regards to getting production numbers up enough to push prices down for widespread use.

Global debt to hit record $277 trillion by year end on pandemic spending splurge: IIF

The US can't even maintain it's existing infrastructure, let alone spending for an entirely different one. And, the US continues to rack up military spending debt: no mention of yearly splurges here!

I'd love to stop having to do fluid changes, but what I WANT and what will BE aren't necessarily the same. EV CUTs won't ever achieve any sizable part of the market, not if comparing to the size of today's [over-saturated] market. Look around to see where the next group of consumers are going to come from: more and more younger people are unable to purchase a house, a house being a more desirable item than a tractor [to the vast majority]; a high percentage are also more likely upside-down in their car loans (IF they even have a car), and they'd be first pushed to buy EV cars. Further, it'll be nukes that become our un-doing (weapons), not our "savior" (more money goes toward weapons; expanding weapons sales, the ONLY thing the US two-party system can agree upon, only further increases the odds of landing in the "un-doing" category.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #338  
The Ford electric pickup truck, Ha! We use our trucks for pulling trailers with loads. Good luck with that...using batteries. Maybe get 150 miles or less if going uphill with a load. Then you gotta recharge. That truck would only be good for tooling around town and making a statement. Anyone that needs a business work truck should stick with gas/diesel. Good luck Ford.
That's a good point and for today you're probably right in that if you're doing long hauling every day an electric pickup is not the best choice. But most people who buy trucks aren't like the folks on this forum who are out working them every day. Estimates say that 75% of truck owners tow once a year or less (meaning never) and go off road once a year or less (again never). To those people trucks are just cool commuter vehicles that might get taken to Home Depot on Saturday, or maybe a remodeling pro who's never outside the city. IMO that's the target demo for these and in that scenario they're ideal. Between 2 and 3 million pickups are sold in the US every year, so even if you're only talking about 75% of a market that size that's still a ton of vehicles and they'll have no problem selling all they can make. And they'll learn a lot in the process that will make the next generation even better.

While EVs are relatively common and have been around for years, you can't even buy a fully electric truck yet so that should be your clue as to how young the industry is. If you're forecasting the future based on the constraints you see today then I get the doubt, but I'd also suggest that's not how the future works. I stole this from Wikipedia but this shows the growth in the EV market over the past 10 years:

sales.jpg


Now project that curve out another 10 years. Or 20. That's the future for cars and it'll be the future for pickups too. By then the tech will be ubiquitous and it'll be the future for the CUT market as well. The question isn't if, it's when.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #339  
Someone forgot to tell the railroad to stop shipping coal. Where are you guys piling it all then, if you (someone) aren't (isn't) still burning it?

The image below is from the US EIA. We're definitely still burning coal but this should make it clear where coal's future lies.

energy.jpg


That power has to be replaced somehow. And that power capacity must be INCREASED over the current grid's power capacity. And it needs to be a steady power source, that is available even when the weather conditions aren't perfect, no wind, no cloudy days, no severe winter storms, etc. There also needs to be a reliable backup capacity, for severe weather events that suddenly, and with little time for preparations, drops a huge power demand on the grid (like Texas this past winter).
You're right and the short answer is batteries. There's some good info about that here: How US Grid Operators Plan To Tackle Energy Storage at Gigawatt Scale.

Hydrogen fuel cells show a lot of promise too: Microsoft trials hydrogen-powered data centers

Nuclear power is the best solution for year around 24/7 power, but the greenie zealots would rather we all lived in caves and cooked over open fires than to see another nuke plant go into operation.

How many TRILLIONS of dollars is this new "magic power grid" going to cost the country? Who's going to pay for it?
Another thing the graphic above sorta shows is our unrelenting appetite for electricity. We've done OK meeting that demand so far and I have faith in all the brilliant people we have working to keep it that way. Don't underestimate what a country like the US can accomplish if they want to. IMO the answer is simple: onsite generation. Every kW of PV installed at homes and businesses is another kW that's not being pulled from the grid, and that market is growing about as fast as the EV market. I've long thought that the real future of electrical distribution isn't in building yet more grid, it's in onsite generation that will over the long term work to decrease our reliance on remote generation and distribution at scale.
 
/ How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete? #340  
My rebuttal as to why I do NOT believe that EVs will be as ubiquitous as many would speculate:

"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." - Dr. Albert Bartlett

Growth compounds. We're educated about this as pertains to savings in a bank account, to see it as a good thing. There's the other side of "growth" that we don't much learn about.

Given that perpetual growth on a finite planet isn't possible, there will always be a peak in the physical production of anything.

Just as coal production has plateaued, so too will happen with EVs. NEVER a question of IF, but of WHEN.

In the early part of the 20th century the British economist John Jevons wrote a fairly benign book called "The Coal Problem." In it he predicted a looming energy crisis as Britain's coal reserves were depleting: as an economist he saw the numbers. Obviously, Jevons didn't see oil coming to save the day (which its done for some 100 years); BUT, he made the observation, perhaps the only thing that allowed him to be remembered for anything other than a mediocre economist, that "efficiency" meant a faster depletion of resources. Thus was born "Jevons Paradox," an increase in efficiency means an increase in the rate of exhaustion. One only need look at global oil extraction, processing, distribution and consumption to see really how efficient we've become over the course of some 100+ years; as efficiency increased oil field depletion rates increased, exponentially.

We are clearly starting to see what Jevons would likely today call "The Oil Problem." The next "Problems" will be: Uranium and Lithium (you can locate these on the map where a lot of violence/military action is occurring [other than the middle east, South America and Africa]).

Will EVs be hampered by uranium production (for generation of electricity) or by lithium (current battery technologies)? Eventually, yes: a mathematical certainty.

‘We Will Coup Whoever We Want’: Elon Musk and the Overthrow of Democracy in Bolivia

On July 24, 2020, Tesla’s Elon Musk wrote on Twitter that a second U.S. “government stimulus package is not in the best interests of the people.” Someone responded to Musk soon after, “You know what wasn’t in the best interest of people? The U.S. government organizing a coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia so you could obtain the lithium there.” Musk then wrote: “We will coup whoever we want! Deal with it.”

Uranium in Africa...

The Secret War in Africa


The United States and NATO operate the largest military infrastructure in Africa with thirty-four bases (some secret) and thirty new US military or NATO construction projects underway in Africa spanning four countries.

(there's a second part to the story which breaks down the countries and the resources and who is in pursuit; my point here is to note what is going on behind the scenes of all the fancy brochures we see that are promoting EVs and such)

Externalized costs: via subsidies and war.

How likely is it that there will be sufficient disposable consumer income available to push the button on "Economies of Scale" for EVs? NOTE: also consider deficit spending, ever-increasing, much of which is in the form of "defense" (which has more to do with securing natural resources than in defending human lives); consider that this eats into the available disposable-income pie. More direct economic measurements, however, are available... [these articles are US-centric; seeing that the US is the world's number 1 consumer I would think US metrics provide a reasonable picture of the global situation on the whole]

Inflation Marks Quickest Pace Since 2008; Consumer Prices Surge in April


Real Earnings Summary

From April 2020 to April 2021, real average hourly earnings decreased 3.4 percent, seasonally adjusted.
The change in real average hourly earnings combined with a 2.7-percent increase in the average
workweek resulted in a 0.8-percent decrease in real average weekly earnings over this period.

None of this rings the bell for amping up expenditures on EVs: not without some sort of major spending correction at a national level, which would then provide for targeted subsidies, such as would be required to truly push the EV-as-our-future meme. Much of US infrastructure was built post-WWII, when the US effectively ruled global manufacturing, thus having a huge positive trade balance (also aided by oil exports, which, after 1971, dried up [US became net importer & US went off the gold standard - a coincidence? HA!]; the great shale oil money laundering racket reversed this [but, as we will find, its "success" will be short-lived]). "We" [US] are in no way on a similar, sound economic footing as back in the 1950s; AND, the notion of engaging in big national infrastructure projects is a thing that effectively got removed from the dictionary circa 1980: interesting political turn by the GOP, going from Eisenhower to Reagan. I don't readily see there being any political appetite to do a remake of the 1950s. NOTE: I advocate for nothing here, just stating what's on the playing table.

There's also personal debt. High numbers of late car payments. Mortgage loans are on a stay of execution: this was coming even before COVID-19, COVID-19 merely bumped the time frame up a bit; COVID-19 also brought legislation to temporarily stave off foreclosures (and evictions). These chickens are out there and dusk is looming...

Could things turn around? Well, yes (most anything is possible; it's probabilities that I concentrate on), though I don't see it happening in any way that many fancy it, but it will, eventually, be subject to the problem of growth. Things could also not turn around. Anything can be said to be successful, given a short enough time frame: I believe I am the owner/creator/originator of this saying/statement (no copyright pending).

My ramblings here are to present a counter position, one that pulls the curtain away from all the marketing hype (and other human hubris) and exposes reality: I did this back in the day when biofuels were starting to get wildly pushed (I did a mic drop on a panel of "pro-biofuels" folks; my "counters" have held up all these many years, while those pushing brochures cannot claim the same). I've followed energy stuff for nearly 40 years: my favorite energy prospect was hot fusion, as a means of recycling (reclaiming at the atomic level, pure). When I eventually realized that energy is only PART of the equation is when I started questioning the notion of "boundless" energy as savior of mankind's future. The equation/notation is: Natural Resources + Recipe ("technology") + Energy -> "Tangible Product." A Tangible Product cannot be made without all three things in the mix. All wars are about resources: either acquisition or control of.

DISCLAIMER: I hold no direct* economic investments in any of this, either FOR or AGAINST. Feel free to "invest" as you see fit: do know, however, that there is a lot of non-glossy stuff going on behind the glossy adverts (and, of course: Perpetual growth on a finite planet isn't possible; when talking about growth there must be a stated time component, otherwise, "Anything can be said to be successful, given a short enough time frame.").

* Everyone, as a member of society, can be said to be, at the very least, affected indirectly.

BTW - I very much like a lot of ideas, most as ideas but not necessarily as something that escapes the "drawing paper."

“The chief cause of problems is solutions.” - Eric Sevareid​

 

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