Custom hydraulic backhoe thumb

[IslandTractor]

IT, did you clarify if that price included the valve body itself? I think it may be just for the cartridge and solenoid possibly?

I just gave him the model number that was in the link dfkrug posted a few days ago. I did not know to ask for anything else. To be honest, I feel like a baby walking through a mine field here. I can almost understand electricity and plumbing but hydraulics just leaves my head spinning.

 

[IslandTractor]

Yep, learned that years ago after getting my BH. Can you put the BH on #2 aux and the thumb on #1? I know you can do that on a Mahindra 4110, as a friend does this.
hugs, Brandi

Thanks Brandi. Now I just need to figure out which is #1 and which is #2. I guess trial by error may be necessary.

 

[dfkrug]

Yep, learned that years ago after getting my BH. Can you put the BH on #2 aux and the
thumb on #1? I know you can do that on a Mahindra 4110, as a friend does this.

I see what you are getting at. Yes, the upstream valve in the stack would have priority, so you certainly
could put the thumb on #1, and the hoe on #2. In general circumstances.

I did not consider that cuz when you buy the OEM AUX valves from Kioti, #1 is detented and #2 is not
(tho I think it has float). That's the setup for the CK25/27/30/35 anyway. CK20 has only one AUX
offered. The detented valve is for the hoe.

I can not say for certain that the Kioti DKs all do it that way with the OEM AUX valves. If not, then IT,
tells us what you have.

 

[avc8130]

I see what you are getting at. Yes, the upstream valve in the stack would have priority, so you certainly
could put the thumb on #1, and the hoe on #2. In general circumstances.

I did not consider that cuz when you buy the OEM AUX valves from Kioti, #1 is detented and #2 is not
(tho I think it has float). That's the setup for the CK25/27/30/35 anyway. CK20 has only one AUX
offered. The detented valve is for the hoe.

I can not say for certain that the Kioti DKs all do it that way with the OEM AUX valves. If not, then IT,
tells us what you have.

If they are just standard stack valves, you should be able to re-order them physically...no?

How is your setup on the grapple? Is there a thread about that?

ac

 

[bindian]

I see what you are getting at. Yes, the upstream valve in the stack would have priority, so you certainly
could put the thumb on #1, and the hoe on #2. In general circumstances.

I did not consider that cuz when you buy the OEM AUX valves from Kioti, #1 is detented and #2 is not
(tho I think it has float). That's the setup for the CK25/27/30/35 anyway. CK20 has only one AUX
offered. The detented valve is for the hoe.

I can not say for certain that the Kioti DKs all do it that way with the OEM AUX valves. If not, then IT,
tells us what you have.

How are they numbered? :scratchchin: Sitting in the tractor's seat left as #1 and the right as #2?:confused3:
I had a non-aviation friend label stuff..............drivers side and passenger side. Drove me up the wall as I learned the Captain's side is always the left or #1 side and the co pilot's side is the right or #2 side. Except in helicopters.:gloomy: Then everything is backward.:banghead: The Captain sides on the right and the co pilot sits on the left.
hugs, Brandi

 

[avc8130]

How are they numbered? :scratchchin: Sitting in the tractor's seat left as #1 and the right as #2?:confused3:
I had a non-aviation friend label stuff..............drivers side and passenger side. Drove me up the wall as I learned the Captain's side is always the left or #1 side and the co pilot's side is the right or #2 side. Except in helicopters.:gloomy: Then everything is backward.:banghead: The Captain sides on the right and the co pilot sits on the left.
hugs, Brandi

I don't know how the numbering works either, but I'll try to explain what I think is happening and what might be able to be done to "fix" it.

I'm pretty sure the rear remotes are a "stack" valve. The way I UNDERSTAND these to work is that hydraulic flow enters one side of the valve from the tractor. This flow than normally travels through the stack valve and out the other side to either the PB or Tank port when no valves are in use.

I believe the 1st valve along the path is the detent valve he is using for his hoe. When he puts that valve in "detent", the flow enters from the tractor and then goes out one work port in the 1st valve...through the hoe...back into the other work port...and straight to tank. It never gets a chance to continue through the valve stack to be used by valve 2.

If he physically swaps the order of the valves in the stack (assuming this is possible), he can put the detent valve 2nd. This would have the flow going through the stack past the non-detent valve at all times before looping through the detent valve for the backhoe. Now when he uses his thumb, the flow will be "stolen" from the detent backhoe valve and run through the thumb circuit.

Does any of my thinking make any functional sense?

ac

 

[IslandTractor]

Unfortunately it will be a week or two before I can get down to my tractor and experiment. I currently use the detent valve (closest to driver) for the back hoe and use the spring return valve for my topping lift. When my BH is not mounted, I loop the ports together with a short U shaped hydraulic line and quick connects so I don't ruin the hydraulics if I accidentally activate the remote. I would imagine that if the port is activated that would be the same as having the BH mounted and active but not actually moving. I'll see what happens when I activate that circuit and try to adjust the topping lift.

 

[avc8130]

Unfortunately it will be a week or two before I can get down to my tractor and experiment. I currently use the detent valve (closest to driver) for the back hoe and use the spring return valve for my topping lift. When my BH is not mounted, I loop the ports together with a short U shaped hydraulic line and quick connects so I don't ruin the hydraulics if I accidentally activate the remote. I would imagine that if the port is activated that would be the same as having the BH mounted and active but not actually moving. I'll see what happens when I activate that circuit and try to adjust the topping lift.

I don't think you need that loop. If you "accidentally" activated the remote with nothing connected you would just hear the pressure relief valve as the fluid tried to move against the closed quick connects.

ac

 

[IslandTractor]

I don't think you need that loop. If you "accidentally" activated the remote with nothing connected you would just hear the pressure relief valve as the fluid tried to move against the closed quick connects.

ac

Yes, it does sound different when the remote is deadheaded, but that sound is easily lost in the myriad tractor noises and all too easily ignored. A number of folks have damaged their hydraulics by inadvertently activating a remote that was not connected. My dealer, who is not a worry wort, went out of his way to make that point. Besides, for just twenty bucks or so it is good insurance and also is better than caps for keeping the ports clean. I just store it in the tool box when the BH is mounted.

 

[dfkrug]

How are they numbered? :scratchchin: Sitting in the tractor's seat left as #1 and the
right as #2?:confused3:

Yeah, the Kioti docs are not clear. I would number any stack valve as #1 valve being closest to the IN line, then
#2, etc. Regardless of left or right positioning. The lower the #, the higher the priority.

I do not have the 2nd AUX valve from Kioti, but the instructions say that if you get the 2nd one, it must be
installed in a particular order or they will not work. In re-reading the docs just now, it is not really clear which
valve is the upstream one when both are installed. There is no substitute for a field test.

The stack of 2 valves uses internal passages for OUT and PB. The IN connection is to the #1 valve and is
an external hardline. That leads me to think that the second valve is plumbed after the 1st.

25 y ago I took a helicopter flying lesson in a Robinson R22 (piston-engine helicopter) and I
sat in the right-hand seat. The instructor (a very patient woman) sat in the left. Could it be different
in New Zealand?

 

[dfkrug]

This little valve is intriguing, but for most applications you would need to switch both lines for complete control, and that
one does not do that from what I can see.

Sorry, I thought you had used the 2-solenoid manifold-type valves before. HydraForce calls those "sandwich valves".

I am a proponent of the simplest and/or most economic solution, so I like this HydraForce valve if someone wants
to switch 2 hydraulic circuits simultaneously. It is a simple 2-position valve that requires only one solenoid
to control it. I have posted the hydraulic schematic here to show how simple it is.

The large 2-solenoid valves sold by SurplusCenter, WRLong, and others have 3 positions with an open
center at neutral. One solenoid pushes the spool, and the other pulls it.

This HydraForce valve is bidirectional so needs only 2 positions and DOES switch two lines
for complete control.

At the risk of getting into the weeds here, these solenoid valves can only push or pull, not both,
and generally don't care about polarity.

 

[avc8130]

Sorry, I thought you had used the 2-solenoid manifold-type valves before. HydraForce calls those "sandwich valves".

I am a proponent of the simplest and/or most economic solution, so I like this HydraForce valve if someone wants
to switch 2 hydraulic circuits simultaneously. It is a simple 2-position valve that requires only one solenoid
to control it. I have posted the hydraulic schematic here to show how simple it is.

The large 2-solenoid valves sold by SurplusCenter, WRLong, and others have 3 positions with an open
center at neutral. One solenoid pushes the spool, and the other pulls it.

This HydraForce valve is bidirectional so needs only 2 positions and DOES switch two lines
for complete control.

At the risk of getting into the weeds here, these solenoid valves can only push or pull, not both,
and generally don't care about polarity.

So is that basically a diverter?

 

[dfkrug]

So is that basically a diverter?

In the sense that it diverts flow from 2 circuits to 2 others, yes.

Here is a schematic of a typical Vickers 2-solenoid manifold-type valve, often seen on FELs,
used to divert flow from existing circuits to a grapple, 4-in-one, blower, etc. Note the
usually unnecessary center position.

BTW, one of the reasons I tend to buy valves from HydraForce and motors from White is
the docs seem easier to access and more infomative.

I had to get this JPG off of a valve for sale on eBay, as I could not find it on the Eaton/
Vickers site.

 

[IslandTractor]

She wasn't the instructor, she just slept in a Holiday Inn.:laughing:

 

[dfkrug]

Here is another nice 6-way monoblock valve, this one is in cast steel and setup for higher
flow. Only $121 on eBay now, shipped (item#201196713523).

 

[kennyd]

Sorry, I thought you had used the 2-solenoid manifold-type valves before. HydraForce calls those "sandwich valves".

I am a proponent of the simplest and/or most economic solution, so I like this HydraForce valve if someone wants
to switch 2 hydraulic circuits simultaneously. It is a simple 2-position valve that requires only one solenoid
to control it. I have posted the hydraulic schematic here to show how simple it is.

The large 2-solenoid valves sold by SurplusCenter, WRLong, and others have 3 positions with an open
center at neutral. One solenoid pushes the spool, and the other pulls it.

This HydraForce valve is bidirectional so needs only 2 positions and DOES switch two lines
for complete control.

At the risk of getting into the weeds here, these solenoid valves can only push or pull, not both,
and generally don't care about polarity.

D, I think you are confusing a "diverter" and "valve" in this discussion, diverters do not have a center position, they are either switched one way or the other to direct flow from a valve. What you see from WR and SC mounted on a subplate are NOT diverter's, but rather solenoid operated control valves plumbed in to the PB lines-that's why they have two opposing solenoids that move the spool one way other the other to operate a function.

 

[kennyd]

So....consider this valve, from the HydraForce catalog. One solenoid, six-way:
SV12-60 Spool-Type 2-Position, 6-Way Hydraulic Cartridge Valve

Not small in size, and I do not know what it would cost. You have to ask a disti.

I hope someone gets a quotation. It should be way less than the usual 2-solenoid spool-type diverter/
selector sold by the likes of WRLong. That's the type that requires the purchase of a manifold, too. The
HydraForce unit is a monoblock that does not.

$140 each. Not too bad. Takes a few weeks to get.

I don't quite understand the six port configuration and operation but that certainly is quite a bit less expensive than the WR Long diverter valve. Not sure what the relative benefits/pros/cons are of this valve vs the more standard diverter valve set up though. I have a diverter valve from WR Long that runs my grapple from the FEL circuit.

Not bad at all. Did you use the MFGR quotation request form on the HydraForce website? If so,
you then have to go to a disti to sell/ship it to you. Maybe adds $35-50.

I see no downside to using this valve over the manifold-mounted valves. It is SOOOOO much less, too.

I just talked to my supplier about this, that $140 is the spool alone, no solenoid coil or body. Your looking at over $300 complete with a DIN or Deutsch coil, and SAE ports.

 

[avc8130]

I just talked to my supplier about this, that $140 is the spool alone, no solenoid coil or body. Your looking at over $300 complete with a DIN or Deutsch coil, and SAE ports.

Which actually puts it more expensive than the diverters you offer.

ac

 

[kennyd]

Which actually puts it more expensive than the diverters you offer.

ac

Correct, and with no electric's either, and its harder to mount as the ports are on three sides, it's also over 9" tall.

 

[avc8130]

Correct, and with no electric's either, and its harder to mount as the ports are on three sides, it's also over 9" tall.

I'm pretty excited about just paralleling the curl and installing the one valve. The plumbing is easy, the electrical easy. Yes, I lose 100% total control of the thumb, but the installation and cost advantages are significant.

A full-on diverter is going at the front of the machine to steal curl for a future grapple.

ac