Generators - Backfeeding - 120V

[tsteahr]

Could get a little warm if it was all going thru a 15 amp 14 ga shared circuit.

But I agree, that would not be very likely, that his entire draw would be thru 2 circuits.

JB

I did not know 110v circuits shared neutral returning to the service panel. Each 110v circuit in my house has its own neutral. I don't have any 110 circuits that share neutrals returning back to the main panel. The individual neutrals all tie back together to the common service neutral at the service panel. So I'm not sure how you could overload any of the 110v circuit neutrals.

 

[aczlan]

I did not know 110v circuits shared neutral returning to the service panel. Each 110v circuit in my house has its own neutral. I don't have any 110 circuits that share neutrals returning back to the main panel. The individual neutrals all tie back together to the common service neutral at the service panel. So I'm not sure how you could overload any of the 110v circuit neutrals.

This is more of an issue with a house like our current one which is wired in conduit and share neutrals between circuits.

Aaron Z

 

[tsteahr]

This is more of an issue with a house like our current one which is wired in conduit and share neutrals between circuits.

Aaron Z

Interesting. I never knew that existed. Your earlier observation makes perfect sense now.

 

[JB4310]

This is more of an issue with a house like our current one which is wired in conduit and share neutrals between circuits.

Aaron Z

Not just conduit, that's what 12-3 and 14-3 is/ was used for in our house, besides operating a light from 2 locations, or a small 220V ac outlet.

Not sure if it's still code, but my house was partly rewired and had a service upgrade and complete kitchen remodel and that's how some of the circuits were wired and this was all inspected and passed in 2003.

JB

 

[grsthegreat]

Not just conduit, that's what 12-3 and 14-3 is/ was used for in our house, besides operating a light from 2 locations, or a small 220V ac outlet.

Not sure if it's still code, but my house was partly rewired and had a service upgrade and complete kitchen remodel and that's how some of the circuits were wired and this was all inspected and passed in 2003.

JB

Its not illegal to share a neutral, its done all the time. Just not by me :laughing:. I had a job years ago where the neutral had dropped out and the circuits were surged with 220. All the lights glowed like the surface of the moon and the refer was destroyed. My insurance paid for the repairs, and i never wired another shared neutral system after that.

 

[Scooby074]

I did not know 110v circuits shared neutral returning to the service panel. Each 110v circuit in my house has its own neutral. I don't have any 110 circuits that share neutrals returning back to the main panel. The individual neutrals all tie back together to the common service neutral at the service panel. So I'm not sure how you could overload any of the 110v circuit neutrals.

Multiwire branch circuit.

To the OP, you dont have a grounding in the fundamentals. This is why code exists and "frankenwiring" is illegal... and dangerous.

Hire an electrician and do it right.

 

[sparc]

Why all this "I would never do it but you could do ..."
or the non-code hookups that are sure to kill or injure someone?

What if you could power any circuit in your home from your generator w/o ANY wiring changes, suicide cords, etc. Just a simple plug-n-power setup.
Would you consider it? And, what if you could easily take it with you if you move. With a transfer switch you get to leave all that equipment behind for the next guy. Maybe you'll recoup its cost in the home sale, maybe not.

Look at the Generlink. It mounts bewteen your meter and the meter socket. You plug a single cord from your generator into the Generlink, and fire up your generator. You can now power any circuit in your home within the capacity of your generator. All you have to do is manager the loads by which circuits you turn on.

Simple, safe, and easy. No guesswork, no rube goldberg wiring, no depending on someones memory to protect you from being electrocuted, and no chance of killing a lineman a mile away trying to restore power to the neighborhood whihc could end up with you in court facing charges.

It's a no brainer to me.

 

[JB4310]

Why all this "I would never do it but you could do ..."
or the non-code hookups that are sure to kill or injure someone?

What if you could power any circuit in your home from your generator w/o ANY wiring changes, suicide cords, etc. Just a simple plug-n-power setup.
Would you consider it? And, what if you could easily take it with you if you move. With a transfer switch you get to leave all that equipment behind for the next guy. Maybe you'll recoup its cost in the home sale, maybe not.

Look at the Generlink. It mounts bewteen your meter and the meter socket. You plug a single cord from your generator into the Generlink, and fire up your generator. You can now power any circuit in your home within the capacity of your generator. All you have to do is manager the loads by which circuits you turn on.

Simple, safe, and easy. No guesswork, no rube goldberg wiring, no depending on someones memory to protect you from being electrocuted.

It's a no brainer to me.

I've heard about this and I agree it sounds like a great idea. But I THINK it's only available thru the utility companies that participate in that approach.

I have not heard of it being available from our utility company.

JB

 

[gpflepsen]

There's a thin line between Macgruber and Macgyver. It all depends how you skate it.

 

[tommu56]

Now, I may be able to swap around some breakers to try and move some to the powered leg but this still might not work as I have NO room for expansion in the CB panel. Hence why I can't put in another line, breaker....blah...blah, etc.

What panel do you have putting some tandem brakers might give some space for the interlock plate.

I just need to know if I can power both legs of 120V to get 120V at outlets and light fixtures.


The problem with this is you MIGHT over load the neutral if you have any outlets that are fed by 2 separate circuits and common neutral.

Post a picture of the panel some of us electricians might have a better thought if we can see it. label the beakers in MS paint or something so we can see the loads.

tom

 

[Canada_CT230]

It's done...I moved a few circuits around and got some more important stuff to my live leg.

It is a FPE panel and they do not make double mini breakers.

I found 1 - thick 20A breaker and replaced it with a thin 20A breaker. This gave me one whole slot to play with. I moved my refridgerator circuit to the live side along with our master bedroom circuit.

That Generlink is $850 + install! I can buy a new 240V generator for that $$$ and BF a 240V plug on the clothes dryer.

As for the comment on "relying on your memory"...hence the lock out tag. A person could not walk up and flip the breaker...its locked out...secondly the tag says....do not remove...alternate power being used...originator only to remove. Besides....like I said, It is only my wife and myself and we have our own line and nobody else is on it. Our power fails due to trees downing the line. Unless my 120V/20A/4000W generator can create a current to jump 50ft of downed power lines I doubt a lineman can get hurt by accidental back feeds. I also shutdown my gens when the hydro guys come...even with the extension cord method. Once they come its about 30 minutes before power is restored so I start cleaning up by packing everything any.

Lock out tags are good enough for industrial applications to stop power/machinery while people are working inside them.

 

[crbr]

Interesting thread. Thanks for the input.

 

[grsthegreat]

As far as lock out tag outs....they are a stop gap. As one stupid person can still hurt someone. My point in fact is about 12 years ago i was working on a scissor lift in eagle hardware store (bought out by Lowes later on). I was up 20-24 feet in the air changing out 277 volt lighting THAT WAS LOCKED OUT AND TAGGED OUT. I was taking down a fixture ballast when i got Slammed with 277 volt juice. MAN, my eyes were crossed after that... and slammed my head on the red iron. Turns out some ahole flipped the breakers cause some of the lights were off. This style lock out did not allow for a padlock, only a twisty tie. Never did find out who did it, but i let everyone in earshot hear about it. Guess they were too stupid to read the tagout note

 

[JB4310]

It's done...I moved a few circuits around and got some more important stuff to my live leg.

It is a FPE panel and they do not make double mini breakers.

I found 1 - thick 20A breaker and replaced it with a thin 20A breaker. This gave me one whole slot to play with. I moved my refridgerator circuit to the live side along with our master bedroom circuit.

Glad to hear you are all set.

I took interest in your thread cause I face the same dilemma. I have a 10 kw pto genny that will of course feed both sides of the panel. But I also have 3 smaller portables that I'd like to be able to use just for lighting and other lite loads.

Try to follow this one, as at the time it really threw me for a loop and burned out my garage door opener keypad
1 of these portables has a 220 volt outlet, but it is only 220 volt not 2 separate 110's. I made the jumper to BF thru my welder outlet in my garage/shop which was isolated from the house. When I tested it I was getting voltage readings all over the place on the 2 legs, the lights were flickering etc. I'd get 180v on one side and 30v on the other :confused2:

Turns out the genny only puts out 220 to be used with a 220 volt appliance, it does not produce 2 separate even 110 volt outputs. so If I want to power both sides of my panel with one of these portables I'll have to do some of that frankenwiring mentioned or do what you did and move the important breakers to one side.

The problem (or lack of) is we hardly ever lose power for any extended period of time so I have never had the opportunity for live drills.

JB.

 

[retiredmgn]

Originally posted

People aren't reading my posts correctly.

1) I know its not legal. Nor is speeding, rolling stop signs and having a few too many beers and driving that people do. Hence why I'm not discussing the legality of it.

2) I am a commercial pilot. Very well and used to doing things the same way the 100,000,000th time over and safely too. I'm not an idiot and can get past the world's reasons to design for the lowest common denominator.

3) I do NOT need 220V.

Now, I may be able to swap around some breakers to try and move some to the powered leg but this still might not work as I have NO room for expansion in the CB panel. Hence why I can't put in another line, breaker....blah...blah, etc.

I just need to know if I can power both legs of 120V to get 120V at outlets and light fixtures.
__________________
Canada_CT230

************************
Gettin' a little testy there guy. A number of people just trying to help you out here.
If you had said at the start you were just trying to keep from burning down your trailer at the end of the runway...
Try whatever you want, then just buy another trailer.

 

[Car Doc]

I have done the suicide cords for as long as I have had generators. I have a sign I keep in the meter box that says generator in use I put up and close the door.

I have also moved the circuits I need to the leg thats powering the outlet thats closest to the door since I run the cord from outside to the outlet so I am not listening to the generator.

My plan is getting a pto generator and wire the house and shop with proper transfer switches etc but they dont give any of that stuff away so for now its the way it is.

 

[Canada_CT230]

Not getting testy...I didn't ask how to cook bacon & eggs therefore don't need the answerto that. Revelant answers only. Just don't need ideas for something I'm not doing (multiple generators, frankenwiring, etc). That is not what I was talking about and therefore irrelevant and useless to my questions.

 

[Canada_CT230]

@ CAR DOC - Finally someone that hears me. People didn't read and understand that I have certain conditions.

1. Can't afford a new 220V generator.
2. Can't wire in new lines due to FULL panel.
3. Can't afford a $1500 transfer switch nor can we wire it in without replacing the house panel (more $$$).

It is the way it is. I CAN and WILL make it safe. The only other person that lives in the house is my wife. She has been told...under NO circumstance will you ever touch this panel and generator. She will follow that. My other situation is that we are on a private power line and trees dissconnect that for us. How could we power up the line if its snapped in pieces?

I do need to keep my basement from flooding. I had septic system water back flow into the basement in the spring. With my medical condition I can't be doing what I had to do last spring to fight off water.

I got do what I have to do. The problem is solved now and IF I get $$$ to buy a big fancy genny and switches then I would. But until then...

 

[Car Doc]

Hey welcome Canada I hear ya on the misunderstood threads dont let it bother you it happens on these 1 dimensional internet forums. btdt

The other thing I did anyway was put a 20 amp outlet where I run the generator cord into most of my outlets are 20's but I made darn sure that one was a good one. fwtw

 

[Canada_CT230]

Yup, my generator output is 120V @ 20A. The line I am feeding is already a 20A line/CB. I replaced it yesterday with a new one. I got a 1/2" wide 20A breaker to replace the 1" wide 20A that was there. This gave me 1 empty CB slot to play with and enough room to get my fridge on the live leg.