VERY expensive beet juice!

[Soundguy]

Methanol is usually available in 55 gallon drums from fuel distributors, at least in my area. It can also be purchased at race tracks.

WWF is no muss no fuss but unless you like blue or orange dye, there is practically no difference between WWF and appropriately diluted methanol. You can dilute the methanol in the tire so it really is just a matter of measuring the amount and pumping it into the tire via a burp valve followed by the appropriate volume of H20.

yep.. available in bulk here to from most fuel distribuitors. that and AF, oil, and even diesel by the barrel.

soundguy

 

[IslandTractor]

Starting with some form of alcohol-water mix, are there any types of solids that can be dissolved into the brew to increase the weight that wouldn't be corrosive, or worse? .

You'd have to address solubility, stability, corrosivity and perhaps other issues. Why bother? Alcohol water mixes are basically 8lbs/gallon and we typically get maybe 45-50 gallons into each rear tire. With a total of 100 gallons being 800lbs of ballast even if you could add something to increase the specific weight up to 10lbs/gallon you are only gaining extra 200lbs. If 5000lbs is critically better than 4800lbs for a tractor, then just eat a few more Big Macs instead.

No question the champion for cheap and heavy is CaCl at 10.8lbs per gallon so if max weight is really necessary then bite the bullet on the potential downsides of CaCl and go that route. However, for just generally adding ballast to a CUT, water/alcohol is a pretty cheap and simple and proven DIY method with very few if any downsides.

 

[canoetrpr]

yep.. available in bulk here to from most fuel distribuitors. that and AF, oil, and even diesel by the barrel.

soundguy

I found a racing fuels place and will find out what they will sell it for. I'm going to call my fuel oil supplier as well.

 

[bucktaker]

So who is creating the spreadsheet?

Beet juice
$ per gal x install cost.......variable avg flat repair

WW/methanol
$ per gal x install cost......variable avg flat repair

CaCI
$ per gal x install cost......variable avg flat repair + replacement rim in 25-40 yrs

I think CaCI will win that cost comparision

 

[IslandTractor]

So who is creating the spreadsheet?

Beet juice
$ per gal x install cost.......variable avg flat repair

WW/methanol
$ per gal x install cost......variable avg flat repair

CaCI
$ per gal x install cost......variable avg flat repair + replacement rim in 25-40 yrs

I think CaCI will win that cost comparision

CaCl clearly beats Beet Juice by that calculus. Not so sure about cost/gallon compared to methanol mix though. I think Methanol mix wins the cost per gallon though CaCl might draw even on cost/pound. Need to consider cost of about 200-300lbs of salt ($75-150) plus inner tube ($50-75x2)and installation (pro or buying tools) for CaCl compared to just buying a burp valve ($8) and methanol for the methanol mix. Methanol is $100-125 for 55 gallons which is plenty for even Canadian weather.

 

[Short Game]

...just eat a few more Big Macs instead.

Well, there it goes. I'm a vegetarian. I could go for a little more IPA (having one now with my lunch), but still would be concerned with the 'high' center of gravity.

Here in SW Washington (under 300 foot elevation), we get few long hard freezes, though it's not unheard of. Freezing such a large volume of water would take some time. I don't think it would require a heck of a lot of alcohol here most years.

 

[DAY]

For ag tractors (tillage) extra weight is a given, be it suitcase or liquid.
But is it all that important for these new fangled CUTs that mows lawns, moves snow, or ventures into the forest for firewood? A set of tire chains is WAAAY cheaper than anything you put on or in your machine to increase its weight.

 

[Short Game]

Please tell me the source for cheap tire chains for my rears. Really could use some when it snows.

My ground is bumpy and up and down. One of my first impressions of my newer, bigger, tractor was, "hmmmmm, tippy!"

 

[canoetrpr]

For ag tractors (tillage) extra weight is a given, be it suitcase or liquid.
But is it all that important for these new fangled CUTs that mows lawns, moves snow, or ventures into the forest for firewood? A set of tire chains is WAAAY cheaper than anything you put on or in your machine to increase its weight.

DAY, this isn't as much about traction on snow for me as it is about overall stability - lower CG and ballast for loader work and for digging. It is always nice to have ballast on the 3PT but there are going to be situations when you don't have it and then it is nice to have weights on the wheels or ballasted tires.

I know I saw a HUGE difference in loader capability on my current L3400 and stability with loaded tires.

I'm not fond of the hassle of dealing with leaking fluid but I think the benefits outweigh the downsides for me.

 

[DAY]

I see your point, about CG and traction- esp for loader work.:thumbsup:
Not to beat a dead horse, but (A) we are trying to make one machine do many, many different things, and (B) how come the manufactures sell tractors that need to be modified, right out the showroom door?:confused2:

 

[johnrex62]

I see your point, about CG and traction- esp for loader work.:thumbsup:
Not to beat a dead horse, but (A) we are trying to make one machine do many, many different things, and (B) how come the manufactures sell tractors that need to be modified, right out the showroom door?:confused2:

They need to be modified right out of the door because we try to do so many different things with them. There is no single configuration that will do everything, or even most things, and if the tractor was setup for a specific task it would not be as attractive to the wide buying audience as one 'almost' there for most jobs.

 

[IslandTractor]

Well, there it goes. I'm a vegetarian. I could go for a little more IPA (having one now with my lunch), but still would be concerned with the 'high' center of gravity.

Here in SW Washington (under 300 foot elevation), we get few long hard freezes, though it's not unheard of. Freezing such a large volume of water would take some time. I don't think it would require a heck of a lot of alcohol here most years.

There are charts that show the depression of freezing point for various concentrations of methanol water mixes. If you really don't have many days under freezing then water alone may be sufficient. I'm sure there is local expertise in your area.

 

[tommaple]

Nope, no 'nappy' for me. That's why I understand that colligative properties depend only on the number of particles of solute and not their chemical properties.

You are correct that an ionic compound of relatively low molecular weight is more effective because it puts more particles into solution per mass unit, but that doesn't mean that whole nonionic molecules don't have a similar but less pronounced effect. But now that I think about it I realize I've already proven myself wrong with an experiment done in my own kitchen. Flavored ice pops are loaded with sucrose and they freeze at normal household freezer temps, so sucrose must be too big a molecule to build up a large particle count before it saturates.

So I wonder what the chemical is in beet juice that makes it effective and yet non-corrosive? And I wonder what nonionic, water soluble compound of low molecular weight can be bought cheaply in large quantities?

I can't comment on ionic molecules, but can give an example on the effects of sucrose in a water solution. The ice pops freeze because they have a low concentration of sugar. Maple syrup is basically sucrose in water. Yes, there are some trace minerals that add flavor, but for practical discussion all the solids in maple syrup are from sucrose.
Standard maple syrup has 66% sugar (67% in Vermont) by weight as determined by a hydrometer using the Brix scale. Maple syrup will not freeze at 0 degrees farenheit. It will get so thick that it could possibly turn with the tire and not stay at the bottom for proper ballast.
Making a 66% solution of cane sugar and water would not freeze but other products will stay more free flowing at cold temperatures.
Maybe that is due to the "ionic molecules"?

 

[grsthegreat]

I can't comment on ionic molecules, but can give an example on the effects of sucrose in a water solution. The ice pops freeze because they have a low concentration of sugar. Maple syrup is basically sucrose in water. Yes, there are some trace minerals that add flavor, but for practical discussion all the solids in maple syrup are from sucrose.
Standard maple syrup has 66% sugar (67% in Vermont) by weight as determined by a hydrometer using the Brix scale. Maple syrup will not freeze at 0 degrees farenheit. It will get so thick that it could possibly turn with the tire and not stay at the bottom for proper ballast.
Making a 66% solution of cane sugar and water would not freeze but other products will stay more free flowing at cold temperatures.
Maybe that is due to the "ionic molecules"?

Ohh, i should fill mine with maple syrup...then i can always have pancakes yum:licking:

 

[North Country]

how come the manufactures sell tractors that need to be modified, right out the showroom door?

End users who work soft land and/or who carry massive loads on the 3ph don't want more weight in the rear, unless it comes in the form of more tires.

 

[johnk]

When I had my tires filles with 2 55 gallon drums of Beet Juice it only took a total of 35 minutes to fill the tires. The guy jacked my tractor up on my trailer spun the tires to get the valve stem on top and started pumping. I thought it would take a few hours. He said he gets some batches that are really dense and it takes slightly longer. So I guess all the weights per gallon of the Juice aren't all consistent according to him. The only regrets I have is I didn't do it sooner. Definitely stabalizes the tractor immensely.

 

[Soundguy]

If 5000lbs is critically better than 4800lbs for a tractor, then just eat a few more Big Macs instead.
.

if I loaded with water / methanol..e tc.. and needed 200 more pounds, vs not being able to afford beet juice, or wanting to risk the cacl. I'm sure some cast concrete weights on the axle or frame could be made up cheap.

I cast some front concrete weights for my ford 4600 for mowing I have a real HD and hvy hog behind her, loaded the fronts with water and rv af, and put on front wheel weights, AND hung 2 concrete 'plate' weights on her I made and now she is stable walking up the beaver tail on my deckover gooseneck with mower lifted to clear everything. before she was a teeter-totter..

weights cost me less than 10$ in concrete.. used old fence wire and old bolts as studs..

soundguy

 

[grsthegreat]

My old JD had CaCl without inner tubes when i bought it in 1996. The valve stems rotted off and alot of rust on the rims.
I had one blow out and the CaCl shot all over the inside of my lean too and destroyed several 4'x8' sheets of 12g and 16g rolled steel. Rusted them like a 1940's ship overnight. Did a little number on some of the metal siding also.

I had Les Schaub (local farm tire repair) install new tire and 2 inner tubes (very $$) and refill the CaCl.

My new tractor has rimguard as thats all anyone here uses. I'm told if this tire explodes nothing will rust, but it will look like a crime scene :licking:

 

[Iowachild]

Ethylene Glycol - automotive antifreeze - is out for me even though it would work - because of the risks it poses to pets and livestock. The only anti freeze I would consider is Propylene Glycol (RV) because it is not toxic I am told. I'm looking to look for it in concentrated form.

Propylene Glycol is far from "non-toxic", it's only safer than ethylene glycol.
It is 3 times less toxic in dogs, but not non-toxic. "Safe" is more a marketing thing. Antifreeze Toxicoses

 

[canoetrpr]

Propylene Glycol is far from "non-toxic", it's only safer than ethylene glycol.
It is 3 times less toxic in dogs, but not non-toxic. "Safe" is more a marketing thing. Antifreeze Toxicoses

That seems to not say great things about Methanol/water mix either. Although I think one of the biggest problems with Ethylene glycol is that it is sweet and tends to attract critters. Not sure if this is the case with Methanol.