Flail Mower chain for top link, flail mower

[ovrszd]

Don't start flailing at each other!

I wish I'd said that!!!

 

[Grrrr]

I have attached a picture showing how I would suggest a flail mower is set on the tractor.

The top link is not designed to take any weight or much strain. It is a levelling, and supporting device. On smaller tractors they may seem pretty strong, but trust me, if you saw how quickly a wrongly set top link on a 200HP gets pretzled, and the cost to replace it, you would make sure there was as little stress as possible!

That flail mower in my picture weighs nearly 2 tonnes. It is a great lump and nearly 3.5 metres wide.


There should also be no need to adjust the top link between work and travel. In work, the float should be in the middle of it's travel when on flat ground. Then when you pick the implement up, the top link will 'float' to it's extreme position and the rear of the flail will then lift off the ground.

As for the problem of the roller scuffing when turning - that is simply cured - drive in straight lines, and lift it up at the headlands to turn, do a 180 and go back again.

 

[Grrrr]

You either don't have a floating toplink bracket, or don't understand what it's for. When adjusted for the mowing position, there is no "stress going through the toplink" - and it is excellent on hills. In fact, my property is ALL hills.

Look at the photos below. This particular style of flexible toplink bracket locks in the upright position. The left photo shows the transport position with the toplink shortened until the bracket hits its stop. At that point, the implement is picked up for transport. Now look at the right photo, which depicts the mowing position. Note that the toplink is lengthened, rotating the bracket back to the 45 degree position. Now when the front of the tractor is lower than the rear, the toplink pulls the bracket forward. But it's pivoting on a pin, so the mower deck never moves. Then when the front of the tractor is higher than the rear, the toplink pivots the bracket rearward. But it's only the bracket that moves, not the mower deck. That floating bracket will pivot through a full 90 degree arc, moving back and forth as the tractor goes up and down. Yet the mower deck stays parallel with the ground.

Same principle applies to the floating toplink bracket on my flail mower. I just didn't have any photos handy. The flail bracket is the U-type , and it pivots inside the A-frame instead of above it. Whereas the RC bracket has a 90 degree arc, the flail bracket will pivot nearly 180 degrees. And now that I have a hydraulic toplink, I don't even have to get off the tractor like I did in the past - to adjust the rigid toplink between transport length and mowing length.

//greg//

Greg G, reading your post again, this is exactly what I am suggesting is the right way to do it. Your bracked works in a very similar way to the slot I speak of.

What confused me, is that you said you put the lift arms into float as well (meaning you lower them to the very lowest position, and they can still ride up).

You can't put the lift arms into float, and have the top link floating, as the front of the mower would just hit the ground and scalp it!

 

[SPYDERLK]

Look at the photos below. This particular style of flexible toplink bracket locks in the upright position. The left photo shows the transport position with the toplink shortened until the bracket hits its stop. At that point, the implement is picked up for transport. Now look at the right photo, which depicts the mowing position. Note that the toplink is lengthened, rotating the bracket back to the 45 degree position. Now when the front of the tractor is lower than the rear, the toplink pulls the bracket forward. But it's pivoting on a pin, so the mower deck never moves. Then when the front of the tractor is higher than the rear, the toplink pivots the bracket rearward. But it's only the bracket that moves, not the mower deck. That floating bracket will pivot through a full 90 degree arc, moving back and forth as the tractor goes up and down. Yet the mower deck stays parallel with the ground.//greg//

Sorry, but I've never waivered from the positon that conventional rear TPH flails (conventional TPH mowers in general) should have a floating toplink bracket. And at least twice I demonstrated - with photos - the use of said bracket; rigid for transport, extended for mowing. And that there is no stress on the toplink when a floating toplink bracket is used in the mowing (extended) position (I'm guessing those chain advocates - or those who admit to using no toplink at all - either don't have a floating toplink bracket installed, or don't know what it's for). I don't know how I could have made it any clearer than that.//greg//

If this then not this. You are not floating the 3pt hitch as stated and clarified by the OP with your agreement. You are holding the front of the mower up with the lift arms and allowing it to float on its tail wheel by use of a floating top link. [The only difference between using that and a chain is that it limits the amount of free compressive motion.] I think that may have been the root of misunderstanding all along. It may be that I will have to make that clearer. I hope not.
larry

 

[Dead Horse]

/\ /\ yep, again.

 

[Grrrr]

I cannot see how 'floating' the link arms would be the right way to use one at all. There would be a lot of stress going through the top link to push it back off the ground, and it would not be very good on hills. The top link wants to have no stress in it at all or you will bend / break them.

You either don't have a floating toplink bracket, or don't understand what it's for. When adjusted for the mowing position, there is no "stress going through the toplink" - and it is excellent on hills. In fact, my property is ALL hills.

//greg//

BTW In your reply you miss addressed Grrrs quote. There is definitely stress on the top member when an implement floats the 3pt.
larry

No I do understand how a flating top link works, and how 'floating' the lower links works. If you float the lower link arms, there is a lot of stress going through the top link to keep the front off the ground. End of.

 

[Dead Horse]

Agreed, Jake.

The physics is pretty simple, but sometimes it escapes the "book smart".

Plus, the "smartest guy in the room" syndrome has no known cure.........

 

[greg_g]

Greg G, reading your post again, this is exactly what I am suggesting is the right way to do it. Your bracked works in a very similar way to the slot I speak of. What confused me, is that you said you put the lift arms into float as well (meaning you lower them to the very lowest position, and they can still ride up).

Yes, you understood and interpreted as I had intended. Thank you

You can't put the lift arms into float, and have the top link floating, as the front of the mower would just hit the ground and scalp it!

Well, I can. And I think if you look at it again, you can too. In my case it's taken into consideration when adjusting the toplink from the travel length to the mowing length. In the case of a 90 degree floating arc, you adjust the toplink at the 45 degree point. 45 degrees forward of that the assembly becomes rigid - the transport position. 45 degrees aft of that the assembly becomes rigid again. At that point, the mower will stop tilting forward. Same principle applies to the U-type brackets, except they pivot through a 180 degree arc. 0 degrees is transport, 90 degrees is mowing, 180 degrees is the stop lock.

Your diagram looks like an Italian design, but the principle applies there too. Toplink is shortened to the front of the slot for transport, lengthened to the middle of the slot for mowing. During mowing the toplink will move back and forth in the slow relative to slope. Hitting the back of the slot prevents the mower from tipping forward.

All this of course assumes that the floating toplink bracket is factory (or a correctly sized aftermarket) and that the toplink itself is correctly sized to the implement. Again, a hydraulic toplink enables you to do all this without even leaving the tractor seat.

//greg//

 

[Grrrr]

Yes, you understood and interpreted as I had intended. Thank you
Well, I can. And I think if you look at it again, you can too. In my case it's taken into consideration when adjusting the toplink from the travel length to the mowing length. In the case of a 90 degree floating arc, you adjust the toplink at the 45 degree point. 45 degrees forward of that the assembly becomes rigid - the transport position. 45 degrees aft of that the assembly becomes rigid again. At that point, the mower will stop tilting forward. Same principle applies to the U-type brackets, except they pivot through a 180 degree arc. 0 degrees is transport, 90 degrees is mowing, 180 degrees is the stop lock.

Your diagram looks like an Italian design, but the principle applies there too. Toplink is shortened to the front of the slot for transport, lengthened to the middle of the slot for mowing. During mowing the toplink will move back and forth in the slow relative to slope. Hitting the back of the slot prevents the mower from tipping forward.

All this of course assumes that the floating toplink bracket is factory (or a correctly sized aftermarket) and that the toplink itself is correctly sized to the implement. Again, a hydraulic toplink enables you to do all this without even leaving the tractor seat.

//greg//

No this is not possible! Seriously!

Something has to keep the front of the mower off the ground, or it will cut far too low.

If the top link is floating, the somethign else has to keep the front of the flail off the ground. Since there are no depth wheels, the lift arms are what set the height.

They may be floating in the sense that they can always lift up, but they cannot be dropped to the bottom of their travel and left there (what 99% of people would consider floating). It is impossible.


I also do not see why you need to adjust the length of the top link at all. Set it for the mowing position. When you lift up, it will go to the extreme of it's travel and then stop there. Why do you need to adjust it between mowing and travel? The only difference may be that the rear of the flail hangs down a bit when lifted up.

 

[greg_g]

I also do not see why you need to adjust the length of the top link at all. Set it for the mowing position. When you lift up, it will go to the extreme of it's travel and then stop there. Why do you need to adjust it between mowing and travel? The only difference may be that the rear of the flail hangs down a bit when lifted up.

You're limiting your analysis to the geometry of your Italian style floating bracket. They're much less common in this country, compared to the 90 degree parallel bar type and the 180 degree U-type. I don't know what the exact arc-equivalent of your sliding style might be, but I'll speculate it equates to no more than 45 degrees. So I don't doubt what you say is applicable to your machine.

90 and 180 degree pivoting styles on the other hand, require a shortened toplink for transport and a lengthened toplink for mowing. Again, I refer to the earlier photos as evidence. They depict the 90 degree type. The arc on a 180 degree is even more radical. Depending upon how low you've set the lower lift arms, lifting the flail into the transport position may not even get the roller off the ground. Or at least cause it to hit the ground if/when the tractor rears go through a dip.

The factory photo below depicts a flail with a 180 degree pivoting U-type bracket

//greg//

 

[J_J]

I had always thought that the tail wheel, was to keep the cutter from scalping. I believe the tail wheel is supposed to be adjusted to barely touch the ground. The front of the rotary should be lower on the front, but it should not float. The front should be set on level ground. You can float if you want to, but I bet it digs in sometimes. I have used chain in the non float position. It works to allow the back to rise and fall according to the terrain. If you let the front float it will probably dig in, unless you have pins setup on the mower to keep the front off the ground, at the bottom of the float. If the front of the mower floats on the ground, that is not floating. My lift arms in the float position are about 1 in off the ground. So in my opinion, float is not an option.

I also have a hyd flail with 4 wheels. Two straight, and two for steering.

There seem to be different opinions about how to use rotary mowers and flail mowers. You can certainly do what you want, because it is yours, but probably wouldn't hurt to experiment using different considerations. You know what you want and like.

Operating a lot of the implements are not written in stone, but one should first read the instructions and make your own decisions.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Greg, I am having trouble finding consistency in what youre saying. In your reply above to Allen in Texas you agree with his description of a fully rigid 3pt hookup for a flail. Altho my flail does not allow for this, I see that that hookup would inherently provide for operation with the 3pt set at minimum height and floated by the flail following the surface. ... Now you seem to be saying that your flail has a floating top link bracket. In order to use it in the "rigid" mode this bracket would have to be defeated, either locked up or driven to full compression by lengthening the toplink a lot, to allow floating the 3pt without the front of the flail taking a dive. This would also be the case with a bushog. You cannot float an implement on the 3pt w/o the top member being rigid or else fully compressed. So ... is that what youre doing? .. running the top fully compressed??

BTW In your reply you miss addressed Grrrs quote. There is definitely stress on the top member when an implement floats the 3pt.
larry

Yes, you understood and interpreted as I had intended. Thank you
Well, I can. And I think if you look at it again, you can too. In my case it's taken into consideration when adjusting the toplink from the travel length to the mowing length. In the case of a 90 degree floating arc, you adjust the toplink at the 45 degree point. 45 degrees forward of that the assembly becomes rigid - the transport position. 45 degrees aft of that the assembly becomes rigid again. At that point, the mower will stop tilting forward. Same principle applies to the U-type brackets, except they pivot through a 180 degree arc. 0 degrees is transport, 90 degrees is mowing, 180 degrees is the stop lock.

Your diagram looks like an Italian design, but the principle applies there too. Toplink is shortened to the front of the slot for transport, lengthened to the middle of the slot for mowing. During mowing the toplink will move back and forth in the slow relative to slope. Hitting the back of the slot prevents the mower from tipping forward.

All this of course assumes that the floating toplink bracket is factory (or a correctly sized aftermarket) and that the toplink itself is correctly sized to the implement. Again, a hydraulic toplink enables you to do all this without even leaving the tractor seat.

//greg//

No this is not possible! Seriously!

Something has to keep the front of the mower off the ground, or it will cut far too low.

If the top link is floating, the somethign else has to keep the front of the flail off the ground. Since there are no depth wheels, the lift arms are what set the height.

They may be floating in the sense that they can always lift up, but they cannot be dropped to the bottom of their travel and left there (what 99% of people would consider floating). It is impossible.


I also do not see why you need to adjust the length of the top link at all. Set it for the mowing position. When you lift up, it will go to the extreme of it's travel and then stop there. Why do you need to adjust it between mowing and travel? The only difference may be that the rear of the flail hangs down a bit when lifted up.

I dont think we will get him to admit it since I asked directly and received a diversionary answer. The question is whether he is floating the 3pt or not. IF he is, then he is lengthening the toplink to the point that the composite top member compresses to its limit before the front of the mower digs in. In that case there will be compressive stress on the toplink at all times except when the tractor changes quickly to a front down attitude [enuf to bottom out the lift arms]. His continued contention that "the toplink is under no stress" makes me think he is not doing this, but holding the front of the implement up with the tractor and letting the tailwheel float via the lost motion bracket. Then there would be no stress within that range of free motion. ... :confused3:
larry

 

[greg_g]

The question is whether he is floating the 3pt or not.

No diversion. Once you started getting antagonistic, I simply stopped responding. Whereas I've been trying to explain as generically as possible, you had progressed to nit-picking and I'm too old for food fights.

Whereas Grrrr and I are apparently speaking the same language, you and I clearly have a different definition of "floating". There's a floating toplink bracket (FTB), and then there's adjusting the TPH vertical links to permit floating of the implement. In this case, a flail mower. What I hope that open-minded folks will take away from this exchange, is that the two are interdependent. The degree to which you lengthen the TPH vertical links is dependent upon the type FTB you have. Again, consider that three types that have been discussed here; 45 degree slot, 90 degree parallel bar, 180 degree U-type. How low you drop the lift arms is dependent upon which type FTB and to what length you elect to adjust the toplink itself. These are mutually dependent adjustments, determined by many factors; size of tractor, size of mower, terrain to be mowed, mowing height desired, whims of the operator. Very obviously, you do NOT want to drop the lift arms so far as to permit the front of the mower to hit the ground. This point should be coincident with the toplink length that stops the flail from rotating too far forward.

When I adapt the above described geometry to my 74" Ford 917H flail, the rear roller never leaves the ground until it's time to pick up the mower and head for the barn. Now I'll admit that I certainly have never seen every flail mower that's ever been manufactured. But - given operators that understand the relationships - there should be no reason that this approach cannot be applied to any other conventionally mounted rear flail mower.

//greg//

 

[J_J]

According to several of the flail manuals, the flail roller should carry the full weight of the flail. The skids are adjusted to be from 1 to 3 in off the ground . The height of the cut is adjusted by the roller placement. It doesn't say anything about 3pt lift arm float mode.

 

[SPYDERLK]

All that means is that your TPH is not adjusted to float adequately. Given enough float in the lower arms, what you describe shouldn't happen. And I'm not a flail mower guru, but I've never seen a (new) one that didn't have some kind of floating toplink bracket. On those used mowers where some previous owner bent/broke/lost them, they're easily obtainable as aftermarket replacements.

That said, a chain and a floating toplink bracket are mutually self-defeating.

//greg//

Yes. It will. Perhaps you don't understand the principle of "floating". The more you lengthen the distance between the upper and lower lift arms, the more the TPH will float. Short version; get your lower lift arms as close to the dirt as possible - low enough where you have to LIFT THEM UP to attach to the implement.//greg//

Greg, I am having trouble finding consistency in what youre saying. In your reply above to Allen in Texas you agree with his description of a fully rigid 3pt hookup for a flail. You cannot float an implement on the 3pt w/o the top member being rigid or else fully compressed. So ... is that what youre doing? .. running the top fully compressed??

BTW In your reply you miss addressed Grrrs quote. There is definitely stress on the top member when an implement floats the 3pt.
larry

You are not floating the 3pt hitch as stated and clarified by the OP with your agreement. You are holding the front of the mower up with the lift arms and allowing it to float on its tail wheel by use of a floating top link. [The only difference between using that and a chain is that it limits the amount of free compressive motion.] I think that may have been the root of misunderstanding all along. larry

No this is not possible! Seriously!

Something has to keep the front of the mower off the ground, or it will cut far too low.

If the top link is floating, the somethign else has to keep the front of the flail off the ground. Since there are no depth wheels, the lift arms are what set the height.

They may be floating in the sense that they can always lift up, but they cannot be dropped to the bottom of their travel and left there (what 99% of people would consider floating). It is impossible.


I also do not see why you need to adjust the length of the top link at all. Set it for the mowing position. When you lift up, it will go to the extreme of it's travel and then stop there. Why do you need to adjust it between mowing and travel? The only difference may be that the rear of the flail hangs down a bit when lifted up.

You're limiting your analysis to the geometry of your Italian style floating bracket. They're much less common in this country, compared to the 90 degree parallel bar type and the 180 degree U-type. I don't know what the exact arc-equivalent of your sliding style might be, but I'll speculate it equates to no more than 45 degrees. So I don't doubt what you say is applicable to your machine.

90 and 180 degree pivoting styles on the other hand, require a shortened toplink for transport and a lengthened toplink for mowing. Again, I refer to the earlier photos as evidence. They depict the 90 degree type. The arc on a 180 degree is even more radical. Depending upon how low you've set the lower lift arms, lifting the flail into the transport position may not even get the roller off the ground. Or at least cause it to hit the ground if/when the tractor rears go through a dip.//greg//

No diversion. Once you started getting antagonistic, I simply stopped responding. Whereas I've been trying to explain as generically as possible, you had progressed to nit-picking and I'm too old for food fights.

Whereas Grrrr and I are apparently speaking the same language,
No, your reply to his prior post is diversionary as well

you and I clearly have a different definition of "floating". There's a floating toplink bracket (FTB), and then there's adjusting the TPH vertical links to permit floating of the implement.
No, we have the same as that definition that you stated for the 1st time now. ... but you still omitted the further distiction and interaction between those and floating the TPH. [I have described this a couple times prior in this thread.]
In this case, a flail mower. What I hope that open-minded folks will take away from this exchange, is that the two are interdependent. The degree to which you lengthen the TPH vertical links is dependent upon the type FTB you have. Again, consider that three types that have been discussed here; 45 degree slot, 90 degree parallel bar, 180 degree U-type. How low you drop the lift arms is dependent upon which type FTB and to what length you elect to adjust the toplink itself. These are mutually dependent adjustments, determined by many factors; size of tractor, size of mower, terrain to be mowed, mowing height desired, whims of the operator. Very obviously, you do NOT want to drop the lift arms so far as to permit the front of the mower to hit the ground. This point should be coincident with the toplink length that stops the flail from rotating too far forward.

When I adapt the above described geometry to my 74" Ford 917H flail, the rear roller never leaves the ground until it's time to pick up the mower and head for the barn. Now I'll admit that I certainly have never seen every flail mower that's ever been manufactured. But - given operators that understand the relationships - there should be no reason that this approach cannot be applied to any other conventionally mounted rear flail mower.

//greg//

OK. Now please be consistent with the description in your last post ... which finally came from repetitively calling your attention to stated inconsistency and disjoint concept description in your prior posts.
larry

 

[greg_g]

OK. Now please be consistent with the description in your last post ... which finally came from repetitively calling your attention to stated inconsistency and disjoint concept description in your prior posts.
larry

No. Compared to that particularly disjointed string of words, I believe I've been sufficiently clear throughout. We're done.

//greg//

 

[SPYDERLK]

According to several of the flail manuals, the flail roller should carry the full weight of the flail. The skids are adjusted to be from 1 to 3 in off the ground . The height of the cut is adjusted by the roller placement. It doesn't say anything about 3pt lift arm float mode.

Judging from OP posts #1, #10, He has no floating bracket on his flail and he has no choice but to float the mower and 3pt on the rear roller. Thats a lot of weight. You wouldnt want to turn much while mowing. Still, Id like to try mine that way. Ill have to make a modification to defeat the floating bracket on my flail cuz it cant be removed.
larry

 

[dmiletich]

I just discovered this thread and read most of it. What interested me about it is the talk about float. I have a NH crawler tractor built in 2010 and I cannot get the float to work. I use a Rears 96" flail mower, and by the way, it has 2 wheels in the rear and no roller pipe. This is an option with Rears because when I bought this used flail I was confused about the wheels instead of the roller pipe. They told me they sell them both ways and so I discovered mine came from the factory that way. Getting back to the float feature, I have 2 levers and a push down mechinism with a release button. Can someone explain to me how I make the float work. The outside lever seems to be the only thing that makes the lower arms go up and down.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I just discovered this thread and read most of it. What interested me about it is the talk about float. I have a NH crawler tractor built in 2010 and I cannot get the float to work. I use a Rears 96" flail mower, and by the way, it has 2 wheels in the rear and no roller pipe. This is an option with Rears because when I bought this used flail I was confused about the wheels instead of the roller pipe. They told me they sell them both ways and so I discovered mine came from the factory that way. Getting back to the float feature, I have 2 levers and a push down mechinism with a release button. Can someone explain to me how I make the float work. The outside lever seems to be the only thing that makes the lower arms go up and down.

By chance have you read the owners manual for this tractor? I would think that it should explain what all the controls do. I think that you will find that the 3pt is always in float mode. Most 3pt hitches will always move (float) in the upward direction. Your position control lever just controls how low the hitch allows the implement to go, but that implement is always able to float upwards. Try lifting your hitch with no implement attached. I think that you will find that you will be able to lift the lower draw bars fairly easy. Your other lever should be draft control and can be used while using dirt engaging implements. As far as the button, I have no idea. I highly suggest that you get an owners manual for YOUR tractor and read it front to back.

Good luck

 

[xtn]

The question is whether he is floating the 3pt or not. IF he is, then he is lengthening the toplink to the point that the composite top member compresses to its limit before the front of the mower digs in. In that case there will be compressive stress on the toplink at all times except when the tractor changes quickly to a front down attitude [enuf to bottom out the lift arms].

That's how I run my flail. Run an extended top link, mounted in the fixed hole, under compression to keep the unit rotated back onto the rear roller, and let the 3pt float all the way down. It works best for me. It allows the unit to float with changing terrain throughout the entire height range allowed by the 3pt without touching the lever. Took me a couple of trial and error adjustments, but now I know exactly what angle to set via the top link to get a nice close cut without any scalping or gouging.

Sure, the top link is normally under compression, but only as much as it is holding the unit back from forward rotation. Any more force that gets transmitted into the top link turns into lift of the 3pt, so that compressive force is sort of self limiting... and surely isn't any greater than what it would see running a middle buster or plow. There is a condition that would compress it a lot more. Backing into a hill so steep that you run out of 3pt height! Since the flail isn't all that long behind the tractor, that would have to be a pretty dang steep approach angle to ride the flail up higher than my 3pt range allows. So I don't see me pretzeling my top link any time soon. I guess another condition that would do it is hanging on a stump or something with the unit, but that's going to tear stuff up regardless.

I tried it the other way; setting a reasonable height with the 3pt and letting the top link float in the slot. I did not like this configuration for a couple of reasons. #1 - It does not follow rolling terrain as well beyond a very small range (the angle of rotation allowed by the top link floating slot, which isn't much). #2 - To deal with #1 you must manually adjust the 3pt height for various terrain changes, and it's not easy to pinpoint the height back to what you wanted it at when things level out again.

For your additional consideration, my flail unit has little vertically floating links where it attaches to the lower 3pt arms. Well, they come pinned so they don't float, but I unpinned them. This allows the unit to raise or lower a couple of inches on either side independently. The result is that the unit can also follow the terrain some in a twisting motion. I can drive diagonally across a drainage swale or bar ditch and the unit mows pretty evenly all the way across without me having to touch anything. Setting height by raising the 3pt and letting the top link float would eliminate this benefit, as those little vertically floating links would be held up against their stops all the time.

Anyway, like I said above it's what I've decided works best for me after trying and analyzing the pros and cons of both configurations.

xtn