Big Enough Truck?

[Builder]

And for that matter, I've always wondered why you had to have a CDL to drive a delivery truck but you can go down to Penske or U-Haul and get the same truck and drive it across country no questions asked. Not only can you get the same truck but heck, they will even let you put a 15 foot trailer behind and load a full-size truck onto it. Weeee! Actually, I've done this a number of times. Just took my time and used my common sense. Got from point A to point B with no CDL, amazing!

I've never seen a Ryder truck rented to anyone without a CDL that grossed over 26,001. It's perfectly legal to rent a 26,000lb Ryder truck with a standard driver's license. If you notice, big Ryder box trucks will have "25,999 GVWR" on the side of them.

 

[Builder]

You missed the point. It is not Illegal. Criminally stupid at worst and inadvisable at best, but not illegal when the tires, license, per axle load and tags are all in spec. Darn near, if not every 1 ton dually with a dual tandem axle trailer is over GCWR. No way you can put a 20k trailer behind a 7-8000 pound empty truck and stay within the 22k GCWR. But, they aren't automatically illegal.

Maybe you forgot that laws are written by politicians and logic does not apply...

jb

Maybe not, but I can tell you my MCVE cop friend routinely writes "vehicle overweight" tickets & fines to operators based simply on the manufacturers GCWR of trucks.
It doesn't take a lot of research to go through each manufacturer of pickups (there's only 3 main ones) for each model year and establish a spreadsheet which shows what each truck can handle. Wouldn't anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of pickups know an F-350 dually towing 25,000 lbs is overloaded according to the folks at Ford who built it?

Maybe each state enforces laws differently.

I can tell you this, there has to be some limit. If I walk into a DMV office and try to buy a combination registration of 50, 60, 80,000 lbs for my GMC pickup, are you telling me they'll sell it to me? And if they're dumb enough to do so, wouldn't they be liable for the others on the road I kill when my truck loses control because it's vastly overloaded?

Something don't sound right to me.

 

[wkpoor]

Ohio has no such law that so many of you speak. At least as long as you aren't towing commercially. As long as I obey the traffic laws I can tow as much as I want behind any type vehicle up to the road limitations. If they make it law what will all the farmers do? They all tow wayyyyyy over their mfg specs.

 

[Builder]

Ohio has no such law that so many of you speak. At least as long as you aren't towing commercially. As long as I obey the traffic laws I can tow as much as I want behind any type vehicle up to the road limitations. If they make it law what will all the farmers do? They all tow wayyyyyy over their mfg specs.

One thing to remember, most of these hotshotters that are 10-20K overweight ARE commercial.

Here in PA, farmers are given some "breaks", so I'm not really including them.

 

[George2615]

I may be wrong and I've been wrong before but I highly doubt that Ohio or any state motor vehicle bureau is going to let someone walk in off the street and register a 1T pickup or any vehicle above the Mfg. rated GCVWR. They'd be swamped with lawsuits should there ever be an accident.

 

[LBrown59]

Ohio has no such law that so many of you speak. At least as long as you aren't towing commercially. As long as I obey the traffic laws I can tow as much as I want behind any type vehicle up to the road limitations. If they make it law what will all the farmers do? They all tow wayyyyyy over their mfg specs.

But what defines towing commercially?

 

[wkpoor]

I may be wrong and I've been wrong before but I highly doubt that Ohio or any state motor vehicle bureau is going to let someone walk in off the street and register a 1T pickup or any vehicle above the Mfg. rated GCVWR. They'd be swamped with lawsuits should there ever be an accident.

I don't know all the ins and outs of this but to my knowledge if you own a light duty truck meaning PU up to 1T you don't register a weight. You just buy a non-com tag. I do run commercials on my trailer because it actually cheeper but there all they care about is the empty weight. My guess is commercial vehicle tags are the same...empty weight only...not what it can carry.

But what defines towing commercially?

Using for business use, not private.

 

[newbury]

But what defines towing commercially?

Bill said he didn't have *** with that woman, based on his definition of ***. The law in Virginia reads "
The following situations exempt operators of
certain vehicles from the CDL requirements.
1. Operation of a vehicle for personal use only,
such as a recreational vehicle or truck to move
your personal belongings.
"
So I imagine if your hauling a 45 HP tractor plus stuff to put you over 5 tons and a police person pulls you over you may have to prove that you are not doing it to make money and you are just hauling it for the fun of it.

I'd like to ask a question I have not been able to find the answer to - What's the max a Ford E350 1988 Diesel maxivan can tow? I've lost my owner manual and the best I could find on the web was for about a 1996 E350.
tia

 

[john_bud]

A CDL is only needed if you are hauling COMMERCIALLY. It doesn't apply to private use. A rented truck used to haul your stuff is considered private. If you were being paid to haul something with the same rented setup you would then have to follow the federal commercial laws.


Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) part 383 states:

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

Part 383: Commercial driver's license standards; requirements and penalties

Good luck with that defense! Let us know if they leave you with your belt and shoe laces...

The Federal government defines any vehicle (including trailer and load) 10,001 pounds and above engaged in interstate commerce to be a commercial vehicle. "Engaged in interstate commerce" is loose and up to the local prosecutors office and is impacted by how low the funds are. A LOT of drag race guys have been tagged for that because they engage in a contest with a prize. Not "won", engage in. Prize can be a ribbon -> anything of value. If you haul your buddies 7500# boat -> that counts because you received "value" by the use of the boat and he received value because you hauled it. Haul your own tractor on your own trailer with your own truck to your own land to cut the weeds down. Commercial as you "gain value" in the property by making it neat and clean. Value can be money, services or barter - large or small they tax them all - not dollar will be ignored! Most troopers don't get picky with the mickey mouse bs, but some locations do and have paved the town with gold as a result.

If you are over the pounds, I don't care what you are doing, you WILL be classified as commercial and they WILL find a huge number of violations. No CDL, no med card, no drivers log, no flares, no spare fuses, no inspection, wrong tags, over load, load balance, bad lights, bad reflectors, wrong tie downs, bad brakes, bad tires, wrong load rated wheels, wrong load rated tires, failure to stop at the scales, etc.

Oh, you can prove me wrong by loading up to 30,000#, drive to the freeway scale, blow the troopers a rassy and tell them you are "not commercial" so you don't need to follow the rules! (rassy optional but fun to do)

<-- my expectation of your look 3 hours later when they get done tearing your truck down and hand you the ticket.

jb

 

[wkpoor]

Some of my above statements were not in the right context. Excluding the 26,000lb CDL requirement. My interpretation from others in other states is that for ex. My truck is rated for 16,000 GCWR of truck and trailer. If I am caught towing my trailer empty but the tag says it can weigh more than my 16,000lbs (even though I actually am way under) I could be fined. I know in Ohio that is not the case and in fact they don't how much I tow behind my truck as long as it is under 26,000.

 

[newbury]

<snip>
Oh, you can prove me wrong by loading up to 30,000#, drive to the freeway scale, blow the troopers a rassy and tell them you are "not commercial" so you don't need to follow the rules! (rassy optional but fun to do)

<-- my expectation of your look 3 hours later when they get done tearing your truck down and hand you the ticket.

jb

Experience has made me leery of "interpretations" by local police.
My brother in-law was tagged by the police when he was driving to an auction with a large load. He talked his way out of it (he's a respectable doctor and a good talker) but from then on won't drive anything above the 5 ton limit.
If it had been me (see my picture under newbury) I'd be asking for KY. But I think I WILL talk to the local troopers BEFORE I try it and see what they say then I might try it. My primary concern is carrying a yet to be bought TLB between three properties in Mississippi.

Again -
I'd like to ask a question I have not been able to find the answer to - What's the max a Ford E350 1988 Diesel maxivan can tow? I've lost my owners manual and the best I could find on the web was for about a 1996 E350.
/edit - the best I found today was the Trailer life mag entry for a 1999, and that was 9,800 lb.

 

[KML]

They don't go back to '88 but this is the best info I've found for the Fords.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/rv_trailer_towing/default.asp

 

[Diamondpilot]

doing it to make money and you are just hauling it for the fun of it.

I'd like to ask a question I have not been able to find the answer to - What's the max a Ford E350 1988 Diesel maxivan can tow? I've lost my owner manual and the best I could find on the web was for about a 1996 E350.
tia

Best I have in my trailer towing guideline book is 1991, don't go back any further. It states the tow limit for a 7.3 E350 as 8,400# They also list several other engines and the 7.5L V8 is listed as 10,000# I think that is a 460.

Chris

 

[Dmace]

They don't go back to '88 but this is the best info I've found for the Fords.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/rv_trailer_towing/default.asp

When you click that link there is another link for owners manuals where you can view the owners manual for any Ford, Mercury, Lincoln vehicle back to 1996. Download the 1996 manual for your E-350 and look at pages 225-239, it shows how to calculate your max trailer load, which code to look for on your VIN and has tables with tow capacities for each model van.

Here is a direct link to the manual for the 1996 E-350.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Good luck with that defense! Let us know if they leave you with your belt and shoe laces...

The Federal government defines any vehicle (including trailer and load) 10,001 pounds and above engaged in interstate commerce to be a commercial vehicle. "Engaged in interstate commerce" is loose and up to the local prosecutors office and is impacted by how low the funds are. A LOT of drag race guys have been tagged for that because they engage in a contest with a prize. Not "won", engage in. Prize can be a ribbon -> anything of value. If you haul your buddies 7500# boat -> that counts because you received "value" by the use of the boat and he received value because you hauled it. Haul your own tractor on your own trailer with your own truck to your own land to cut the weeds down. Commercial as you "gain value" in the property by making it neat and clean. Value can be money, services or barter - large or small they tax them all - not dollar will be ignored! Most troopers don't get picky with the mickey mouse bs, but some locations do and have paved the town with gold as a result.

If you are over the pounds, I don't care what you are doing, you WILL be classified as commercial and they WILL find a huge number of violations. No CDL, no med card, no drivers log, no flares, no spare fuses, no inspection, wrong tags, over load, load balance, bad lights, bad reflectors, wrong tie downs, bad brakes, bad tires, wrong load rated wheels, wrong load rated tires, failure to stop at the scales, etc.

Oh, you can prove me wrong by loading up to 30,000#, drive to the freeway scale, blow the troopers a rassy and tell them you are "not commercial" so you don't need to follow the rules! (rassy optional but fun to do)

<-- my expectation of your look 3 hours later when they get done tearing your truck down and hand you the ticket.

jb

Plain a simple. Where I live and its your stuff you can tow at any weight. I agree they may try to stick it to you but I would not hold up in a court. Myself, all my clients, and buddies have been towing 10,000# plus trailers for 25 years with never one incident. Like I said before every guy running down the road in a diesel truck and a 5th wheel camper would then need a cdl, which is not the case because its for personal use.

I tow loads well in excess of 10,000# more than 6,000 miles per year all over a 10 state area and blow by every scale and never had one single problem along with every truck/5th wheel combo running down the highway.

Chris

 

[Builder]

Personal use is not my gripe, but business or commercial is. I think that's wrong, too but that's for another discussion. Wait until one DOES have an "incident" while towing overloaded commercially or for hire/business (like a traffic accident involving loss of life, limb or significant property damage).

First thing their lawyer will do is find out the trucks manufacturer's GCWR. If the truck is overweight, you'll be pleading guilty to the charges filed against you and paying millions in settlement costs.

Whether it's illegal or not is not really the point here. The point is that the truck is being used well beyond its' designed limits. Accidents happen in the blink of an eye. One forgets to hook up the trailer brakes, a hitch fails, a tire blows out, etc.........If an accident happens while using a piece of equipment well beyond its' safety limits, then you're going to get bent over by even the dumbest lawyer. Guilt is so obvious in this situation.

I feel it's my obligation to speak up and try to remind the newbies or impressionable ones asking questions about towing 25,000 lbs with an F-250, when they should be using an F-650 that they put themselves, their property, and innocent people at risk for catastrophy.

Big loads are the reason they build BIG trucks. You won't see a responsible trucking company towing 25,000 lbs of lumber to a jobsite behind an F-250, will you? Do you see responsible freight companies deliver 20,000 lb loads of produce in a refrigerated trailer towed by an F-250? Of course not.

IMO, the only reason these "super truckers" (hotshotters) are doing what they do is to save money, avoid getting their CDL and proper training. I think they're either too cheap, too lazy or just plain scared to get the right training and equipment to safely tow the weight, so they use a pickup truck to do it and put us all at risk.

Flame suit on.......

 

[KML]

Builder,

I agree with you on towing beyond the rated safe limit of your equipment. It's reckless, I don't condone it, and never recommended it. We all have a responsibility to be safe on the roads. I know some don't take this as seriously as they should, I see it all the time around here in farm country.

Although the federal law doesn't require a CDL for private individuals the state of Indiana does enforce GCVW, axle, and tire load laws on all, regardless of private or commercial. If you grossly overload your equipment you can get ticketed and fined. You are only relieved from the DOT number, medical, and CDL requirements.

You can't legally load beyond your rated limits, but if your equipment is rated for it you can tow in excess of the 26K with out a CDL for private use.

 

[JohnDeere4300]

Ohio has no such law that so many of you speak. At least as long as you aren't towing commercially. As long as I obey the traffic laws I can tow as much as I want behind any type vehicle up to the road limitations. If they make it law what will all the farmers do? They all tow wayyyyyy over their mfg specs.

"I DON'T BELIEVE THIS AT ALL"

There isn't any state that will let you "haul as much weight as you want" behind a pickup truck.

I guess they put~(GVWR-and-GAWR) on a truck or trailer just for looks.

Here in KY. you won't get buy with it, "Farmer or not" Its the law.

In KY. you have these departments that can and will write you a ticket if you are( over weight.)

KY.---DOT.
KY.---Vehicle-Enforcement.___(These people are the worse)
KY.---State Police.
KY.---Sheriff Department.
KY.---City Police~If towing through town(they like to show up in court looking good)

*When you see them get coveralls out and put on.*(then its ticket time)

I have logged thousands of hours in my log book driving a tractor trailer through Ohio, and did see pickups hauling hay, tractors, equipment, lumber, cars~etc... pulled over by the Ohio State Police or the DOT's.

Now i understand why i see many pickups from Ohio pulled over by the KY.~ DOT's ~Vehicle Enforcement etc... (they don't know what GVWR or GAWR means.)

Especially the ones at the campground off I-64 that try to haul a 28Ft. 8500lb. Salem travel trailer with a Ford ranger or Chevrolet S-10 pulling a 30Ft. toy hauler, nocking everything down in the campground or hiring a local service truck to come in and weld on their hitch.

 

[Renze]

I can't see how "buying a tag that cover the total weight" magically strengthens the truck to be able to tow an infinite amount of weight.

In Holland, there is a law that you can get a vehicle approved for a certain tow weight if it can pull off from standstill on a 12% slope, 5 times in 5 minutes, on Lelystad test centre...
The idea is to tag 4 axle semitrailer tractors for exceptional transport.
What happens is that manufacturers of small drivers license tractor/trailer combos use it to approve a 5 ton vehicle, with 10t combined weight, to a 3.5 ton GVW vehicle with 15 ton combined weight.... At the trailer builder i worked, we never took part in that practice, just taking our moral responsibility. Often young folks that just got their passenger car license are sent out with an excavator with a kamikaze combination like that...

 

[john_bud]

Plain a simple. Where I live and its your stuff you can tow at any weight. I agree they may try to stick it to you but I would not hold up in a court. Myself, all my clients, and buddies have been towing 10,000# plus trailers for 25 years with never one incident. Like I said before every guy running down the road in a diesel truck and a 5th wheel camper would then need a cdl, which is not the case because its for personal use.

I tow loads well in excess of 10,000# more than 6,000 miles per year all over a 10 state area and blow by every scale and never had one single problem along with every truck/5th wheel combo running down the highway.

Chris

Chirs, is that towing your boats? Rv's Boats and oddly enough horse trailers get the explicit OK to do what you want in the regulations in many states.

Towing with your truck, your trailer and your boat is ok about everywhere. You may still need a CDL if you cross 26k.

Also, once you cross state lines, you are subject to that states highway laws.

I don't know your state's laws. But I have emailed back and forth with one of the fine gents in snazzy blue suits that enfore the highway laws in your state. I'll PM you his email. He may or may not remember me, but he was always a very helpful resource. He is a working officer and may take a couple days to get back to you.

Builder. Even 3-4 years ago many to most hot-shotters were non-cdl and just put a "Not for hire" tag in the window. Those days are gone. a dually pulling a dual tandem axle trailer is fair game these days.

jb