Big Enough Truck?

[Renze]

I'm thinking of buying a 25ft trailer with 10K tandem axles. If I have that trailer fully loaded (nearly 20K lbs.) will my F-250 with 7.3 Power-Stroke diesel be enough truck?

20k pounds is just over 9 metric ton... Which will give you a combined weight of about 12 ton ?
In Holland that would be towed with a small drivers license Iveco Daily with a 3 liter 177hp engine, manual 6 speed, converted to air brakes. These combinations are legal and quite common, even though the government is talking about restricting the tow weight of small drivers license vehicles to 7.5 ton CGVW. The problem with these combinations is that the drivers license limits the tow vehicle to 3.5 ton, but you need to utilise the technical maximum of 5 ton to drive safe with this kind of combination... In Germany, where trailers may weigh max. 2.5 times the allowed single weight of the tractor vehicle, a 7.5 ton truck with a 220 hp turbo 4.5 liter inline four, off factory with air brakes, is a popular choice.

I assume your F-250 is rated 8800 lbs, comparable to a 4 ton truck in Europe. For that matter, if your truck is equipped with air bags, heavier torsion bars rear and front, and air brakes with EBS, you'll be perfectly safe, and be a lot quicker than that European van with just about 180 hp and conciderably less torque.


For safe towing you need just two things: sway bars (torsion bars) with stiff helper springs, and sufficient brakes.
In Europe, air brakes is the norm for anything over 7.5t GCVW, so a lot of American import pickup trucks are converted to air brakes here.

If you can NOT get air brakes, and axles with commercial sized brakes, i'd say no.


Here's a link to my previous job: All trailers trailers shown in this link are still from the time that was the company engineer:
Trailerbouw Elburg B.V.

We used 5.5 ton drum brake axles with air suspension, electronic braking system (EBS) automatic load sensing brake force control, either 16" Van/light truck tires for goosenecks, or 215/75 R17.5 medium truck tires for flat floor trailers.

With a trailer and braking system like that, you'd be absolutely safe.. Without all the virtues of commercial trucks, leave the 12 ton GCVW to the real trucks that DO have those features...

 

[powerstroke444e]

Renze
all I can say is those are some sweet looking setups.

 

[jcmseven]

Renze,

I think one other issue we have here are the OTHER drivers. Having been and driven in Europe many times, I have felt European drivers--on average--to be a better lot on the road than American drivers and seemingly have a better understanding of "keeping distance"(Portugal being an exception to this--I suppose). In the US, we (meaning those that tow) compete with larger cars, other overloaded truck and trailer combinations, large road over trucks and cell phones, I pods, alcoholics, non-roadworthy vehicles,etc. I realize these are also present in Europe but seemingly not to as great a degree as in the US. Our other issue in this particular discussion is the increasing power of our light duty diesel trucks. Not too long ago a Dodge 2500 had a Cummins 180 hp diesel. Having driven one of these, I found it to be slightly quicker than my dad's old Gravely garden tractor, though the race would have been a tight one. Now one can go to his/her Dodge dealership and they will (very happily I am sure) sell you a 350 hp/650 ft. lb pickup that is the same physical size. Then, being good Americans, many of us hop them up further (I personally am FOR this and have done it myself) to 400+ or more. Unfortunately, all that power can get loads moving but is no better at getting loads stopped, hence one important other aspect to the comprimised safety we see with some of these combinations. I once was one of these testing the limits of what I could tow. I was never illegal but was close at times. As I have grown a little older and hopefully more mature I have started to notice more how many I see in my locale that tow unsafely.

John M

 

[Diamondpilot]

At the end of the day it comes down to the guy towing it. Common sense is not common. It should be called special because about 10% of the population posses it.

Every one does something that is not 100% legal, so do not throw stones. If you go 1mph over the posted limit you are just as guilty as the guy who tow's 1# overweight.

I would personally would not go speeding down the highway overweight but have done so on private property or secondary roads. I use chase and lead vehicles and get permits for over size. The load weight is another story.

I am lucky I guess because around here the only people the cops mess with are truckers. We see hot shotters, guys with F-350's pulling full size backhoes, guys moving 20 round bales on a goose neck daily.



Chris

 

[Builder]

Builder,

I often do not share your opinion on much; but for what it is worth, I feel you have given some excellent advice in your last two posts to those interested in towing heavy weights (as have others in this post). I never tow this heavy, but with my towing, I often see others towing, generally with dually diesel pickups, and sometimes will try to calculate the weight they are pulling in my mind. Just yesterday I saw a guy in a Dodge 3500 dually pulling a large car hauler trailer with another 3500 dually, a Ford 250 diesel and a small compact pickup on it. Calculating for weight, his trailer weight alone should be 8,000+7500+7000+3500 or about 26,000 pounds and the little subcompact was literally hanging by about two inches of rear wheel off the trailer. I cannot imagine that was legal and I know it looked dangerous.

John M

John,

In the last few years I have had an awakening since I last saw the result of a truck that was towing too much weight and the mayhem it caused.

I think this site has a large contingent of inexperienced or impressionable members that need examples of proper equipment operation demostrated to them. They are watching & learning a lot based on what we post that we do with our equipment.

Driving is the most dangerous act we perform everyday of our lives. Add to that driving way overloaded and you've got a recipe for disaster, not to mention putting oneself at great risk for fines, property loss or lawsuits.

The time for impressing others with what we can get away with is over. The time in my life for responsibility took over. Responsible driving is dangerous enough.

 

[Renze]

The time for impressing others with what we can get away with is over. The time in my life for responsibility took over. Responsible driving is dangerous enough.

...My brother once pulled two non-braked haywagons loaded with 5 tons of bricks behind an old Ford Sierra 1.8 diesel, hooked with two D-rings, one through the trailer tow eye, one over the car hitchball...

Unfortunately, all that power can get loads moving but is no better at getting loads stopped, hence one important other aspect to the comprimised safety we see with some of these combinations.

There are some asphalt cowboys in Holland too, you know... Forgive me for saying it once more, you cant imagine how air brakes with automatic brake force adjustment to the load, ABS and ESP improves towing safety....
When air brakes are properly set up, the tow vehicle will kneel on all 4 tires when braking hard.. it will duck forward due to its own braking force, but the brake force on the trailer should be set so, that it brakes just a little harder than the truck, so it will increase the 5th wheel pressure.

With manually adjusted brake force like found on many electric controllers, and no ABS you can never utilise the full brake capacity because blocking wheels would make it even unsafer, so brake force is set lower..



I dont really care about the manufacturers rating when i'm towing... the only towing accident i had was way under the tow rating, but i got in trouble due to faulty brakes, a bad tire and a front gate that folded back during the trip, shifting the center of gravity of just 500kg of lumber to way behind the tandem axles...
I've towed 50% overweight and felt completely safe, with properly distributed weight, and a trailer with oversized brakes and tires.
Even though i can legally tow 750kg without brakes, i concider it less safe than towing 2.5 ton with proper trailer, even though my 850 has a tow rating of 1600kg...

 

[john_bud]

Come on guys, "Illegal"? Not always. It's only illegal if you don't equip the truck to pull it with the correct load rated tires, stay within the axle and tire load rating, (probably) have it inspected, have the correct drivers license with paperwork, and most importantly to the guy wearing the dashing blue suit --> you buy the tags that cover the total weight.

Many many many many guys are running small loads across country legally and are in the 30-35k range with 2500/3500 trucks. Google up on "hot shot hauling".

Now, is it smart to just hitch up a 20k load to a truck rated, equipped and tagged for 14k and go? Heck No! But with proper prep, equipment and tags it can be done legally.

jb

 

[jcmseven]

Chris,

You have an excellent point. Common sense is not common, but exceeding rare. Even though legally speaking we all can be and are at times lawbreakers, to me there is an inherant philsophical difference between an unsafely loaded truck hurtling down the road at a speed from which it has no hope of stopping quickly and other perhaps less dangerous infractions. As I mentioned, I have in my life towed right at the limit of legality in the past (and probably safety too). I have, over time, become much more conservative with my towing habits and feel better about towing when I do. Of course, this is merely my opinion--others may disagree. I also should mention that a lot of it depends upon experience. I tow a tractor and trailer combination that combined weighes around 11-12K, where you, for example, tow heavy boats, etc. and are very experienced at it. I would argue that if I towed your loads with my experience, I would be much less safe at it than you, but you could tow my loads with both ease and safety. One thing that never seems safe, and the initial premise of the OP's post, is that overloading these trucks no matter how powerful and bulletproof they have become is a bad idea. Unfortunately, where I live we see it all the time. We also see a lot of accidents from this as with our steep hills and winding roads (even the highway is tortuous) many overestimate the capabilities of their trucks.

John M

 

[wallace]

As always refer to you owners manual for towing specs.

I have a 2000 ford F250 4x4 diesel with a extended cab and 8 foot box I am licenced for the max which is 22,500 and it is a combination weight.
Some may say who cares that it is a 4x4 extended cab long box well actually that is what make the difference.
If you looking in the owner manual it will list the trucks and how they are equiped to give you your max towing.
Now someone else that you will need a 550 or 650 to get that kind of towing capacity.
I have a F450 that can do 33,000 max combination weight.
Lets all use common sense if it you are worried or have to ask DON"T DO IT.
I have been in the hauling business all my life and have tons of experance but I do do it safely because I want to see my kids grow up and wouldn't be able to live with my self if I hurt or killed someone elses family member because I thought I could get away with it.

 

[Builder]

Come on guys, "Illegal"? Not always. It's only illegal if you don't equip the truck to pull it with the correct load rated tires, stay within the axle and tire load rating, (probably) have it inspected, have the correct drivers license with paperwork, and most importantly to the guy wearing the dashing blue suit --> you buy the tags that cover the total weight.

Jb, the problem is, rarely are all those obligations to the owner/operator fullfilled. I can't see how "buying a tag that cover the total weight" magically strengthens the truck to be able to tow an infinite amount of weight.

I've seen many a bumper hitch rated for 12K being used for 16K. See way too many guys over 26,001 with an over 10,001 trailer without a Class A CDL. Seen far far too many trucks 5-10K past their truck manufacturer's max allowable GCWR, and on & on.

Many many many many guys are running small loads across country legally and are in the 30-35k range with 2500/3500 trucks. Google up on "hot shot hauling".

And my main question to all of them is who/what are you putting at risk by being in the 30-35K range in a truck engineered to be in the 20-26K range?

If this were done in my 4800, or another serious large truck, I'd be put out of service and severely fined. Why should a pickup truck operator be treated any different? In the eyes of the law, I would think they are illegal and putting the GP in danger.

Now, is it smart to just hitch up a 20k load to a truck rated, equipped and tagged for 14k and go? Heck No! But with proper prep, equipment and tags it can be done legally.

jb, respectfully, I disagree. Truck GCWR's should not be exceeded.

 

[john_bud]

Jb, the problem is, rarely are all those obligations to the owner/operator fullfilled. I can't see how "buying a tag that cover the total weight" magically strengthens the truck to be able to tow an infinite amount of weight.

I've seen many a bumper hitch rated for 12K being used for 16K. See way too many guys over 26,001 with an over 10,001 trailer without a Class A CDL. Seen far far too many trucks 5-10K past their truck manufacturer's max allowable GCWR, and on & on.



And my main question to all of them is who/what are you putting at risk by being in the 30-35K range in a truck engineered to be in the 20-26K range?

If this were done in my 4800, or another serious large truck, I'd be put out of service and severely fined. Why should a pickup truck operator be treated any different? In the eyes of the law, I would think they are illegal and putting the GP in danger.



jb, respectfully, I disagree. Truck GCWR's should not be exceeded.

You missed the point. It is not Illegal. Criminally stupid at worst and inadvisable at best, but not illegal when the tires, license, per axle load and tags are all in spec. Darn near, if not every 1 ton dually with a dual tandem axle trailer is over GCWR. No way you can put a 20k trailer behind a 7-8000 pound empty truck and stay within the 22k GCWR. But, they aren't automatically illegal.

Maybe you forgot that laws are written by politicians and logic does not apply...

jb

 

[SouthernX]

[ snip... ]

If this were done in my 4800, or another serious large truck, I'd be put out of service and severely fined. Why should a pickup truck operator be treated any different? In the eyes of the law, I would think they are illegal and putting the GP in danger.

jb, respectfully, I disagree. Truck GCWR's should not be exceeded.

Well, I'm not disagreeing with what you've said but why do we give a free pass to RV owners? There are probably a lot more "dangerous" people pulling RVs than "dangerous" people pulling flatbeds. If people and state agencies are going to thump their chest about safety then I really wish they would be serious about it and make all people pulling trailers of similar weight and size be required to adhere to the same safety requirements. But we wont see that happening anytime soon will we. So, I guess at the end of the day they really aren't that concerned about safety after all.

 

[SouthernX]

Well, I'm not disagreeing with what you've said but why do we give a free pass to RV owners? There are probably a lot more "dangerous" people pulling RVs than "dangerous" people pulling flatbeds. If people and state agencies are going to thump their chest about safety then I really wish they would be serious about it and make all people pulling trailers of similar weight and size be required to adhere to the same safety requirements. But we wont see that happening anytime soon will we. So, I guess at the end of the day they really aren't that concerned about safety after all.

And for that matter, I've always wondered why you had to have a CDL to drive a delivery truck but you can go down to Penske or U-Haul and get the same truck and drive it across country no questions asked. Not only can you get the same truck but heck, they will even let you put a 15 foot trailer behind and load a full-size truck onto it. Weeee! Actually, I've done this a number of times. Just took my time and used my common sense. Got from point A to point B with no CDL, amazing!

Why do you have to have a seat-belt on but you can ride your motorcycle without a helmet? Makes no sense to me but I guess that pretty much illustrates our seemingly schizoid government. Look at the current administration. Run on a platform of change and get in office and change nothing. Right back to the policies that got us to the mess we are in. Go figure.

 

[SouthernX]

20k pounds is just over 9 metric ton... Which will give you a combined weight of about 12 ton ?
In Holland that would be towed with a small drivers license Iveco Daily with a 3 liter 177hp engine, manual 6 speed, converted to air brakes.

[ Snip... ]

Renze,

Interesting stuff, thanks.

 

[SouthernX]

Renze,

I think one other issue we have here are the OTHER drivers. Having been and driven in Europe many times, I have felt European drivers--on average--to be a better lot on the road than American drivers and seemingly have a better understanding of "keeping distance"

[ Snip...]

John M

Ah! Well, you've never been to England have you! First time I was a passenger in an car with an English driver I bout filled my pants. I remember in particular their seeming refusal to slow down for much of anything except for people in the crosswalk (or zebra walk as they call it). What's that ahead... Oh, a bus with people getting on it, and on the left, a parked car. Probably about 1 foot of clearance on each side. Do they slow down, NOOOO! Just blow right through at 40 MPH. I thought I was just unlucky my first time out but I was wrong. This is just the way they drive. Not that they are bad drivers. Just different in some (scary) ways.

 

[jcmseven]

Yes, actually I have been to England; four times now; and to Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and other mainland countries. I agree that there are bad drivers everywhere, but I failed to see the proverbial 16 year old girl texting in the left (their right) lane smoking a cigarette and doing makeup in her 1984 Mustang SVO with a mini-spare on the left front either. That's just scary, if you follow and was seen personally by me last week. She got a wide berth from me. We all know that many of the fines/rules and law enforcement banter we see is 95% money generating and 5% or less safety related. I suppose this is the way it always is. This is way Chris, Duane and others' point about making safe towing choices, from equipment to behavior, is so very important.

John M

 

[KML]

And for that matter, I've always wondered why you had to have a CDL to drive a delivery truck but you can go down to Penske or U-Haul and get the same truck and drive it across country no questions asked. Not only can you get the same truck but heck, they will even let you put a 15 foot trailer behind and load a full-size truck onto it. Weeee! Actually, I've done this a number of times. Just took my time and used my common sense. Got from point A to point B with no CDL, amazing!

A CDL is only needed if you are hauling COMMERCIALLY. It doesn't apply to private use. A rented truck used to haul your stuff is considered private. If you were being paid to haul something with the same rented setup you would then have to follow the federal commercial laws.


Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) part 383 states:

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

Part 383: Commercial driver's license standards; requirements and penalties


I agree that safety should be the number one priority and you should not exceed your equipments physical limitations but a CDL isn't required for private use which is why you can drive a big RV or rent a moving truck and transport 30K+ legally. I know there are a lot of CDL holders that get pretty bent about this, but it's the federal law plain and simple.

 

[LBrown59]

A CDL is only needed if you are hauling COMMERCIALLY. It doesn't apply to private use. A rented truck used to haul your stuff is considered private. If you were being paid to haul something with the same rented setup you would then have to follow the federal commercial laws.

Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) part 383 states:
Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

Part 383: Commercial driver's license standards; requirements and penalties

Does all this mean I don't need a CDL as long as I don't charge for hauling.

 

[farmboy12]

And for that matter, I've always wondered why you had to have a CDL to drive a delivery truck but you can go down to Penske or U-Haul and get the same truck and drive it across country no questions asked. Not only can you get the same truck but heck, they will even let you put a 15 foot trailer behind and load a full-size truck onto it. Weeee! Actually, I've done this a number of times. Just took my time and used my common sense. Got from point A to point B with no CDL, amazing!

Why do you have to have a seat-belt on but you can ride your motorcycle without a helmet? Makes no sense to me but I guess that pretty much illustrates our seemingly schizoid government. Look at the current administration. Run on a platform of change and get in office and change nothing. Right back to the policies that got us to the mess we are in. Go figure.

Right, it's really only needed when driving commercially. We have a 46,640(more when it has water, gear, etc) RV and do not need a CDL. In addition, it has air brakes, and Jake brake. We still do not need CDL.


Kyle

 

[farmboy12]

Does all this mean I don't need a CDL as long as I don't charge for hauling.

Sometimes you MIGHT need a CDL when using it personally. That said, you can get something that needs a Class A or B and put farm tags on it. In MD, farm tags can be used for a 50 mi radius of starting.owning point. Now if it's a big crane license (either super A or A+; can't remember), you may not get farm tags.


Kyle