Work Shop 220v Receptacle?

Deerlope · Dec 27, 2003

I have read this whole thread and read about some good points. When I built my house I also wired it and had it inspected and it passed with flying colors so I feel that I can make a comment here that may be helpful. It is important to remember that the breaker only protects the wire.
Gauge # amps or current
6 ------------------- 50
8 --------------------- 40
10--------------------- 30
12--------------------- 20
14--------------------- 15

missourihick · Dec 27, 2003

All I can add is make sure you put enough plug ins. Theres never the right one where you need it. I've got 10/2 w ground and it runs the welder fine.I've got a 570 amp airco welder on it and the wire is 20 feet long,it'll trip a 60 amp breaker and the wire never even gets warm.

zuiko · Dec 27, 2003

I'd put the outlets in as you have a use for them. It's a pretty simple job and you never know what kind of outlet you will need until you have something to plug into it. In addition to the differerent styles you also have 4 prong and 3 prong variations (with and without ground).

PineRidge · Dec 27, 2003

All I can add is make sure you put enough plug ins. Theres never the right one where you need it. I've got 10/2 w ground and it runs the welder fine.I've got a 570 amp airco welder on it and the wire is 20 feet long,it'll trip a 60 amp breaker and the wire never even gets warm.


If I understood you correctly, you have a 60-amp breaker protecting a 30-amp number 10-gauge circuit. That's an accident looking for a place to happen. I would be concerned about my fire insurance if I were you. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Deerlope · Dec 27, 2003

you bet it is an accident waiting to happen, a fire for sure. 60 amp bkr. on 10 gage wire.

Inspector507 · Dec 27, 2003

I have a #10 wire on a 50 Amp breaker. Of course it too is for a welder. Thats what the manufacturer recommends.It meets code for a welder, perfectly safe if thats all you plug in there. And I think I should know /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif . Read NEC® 630 before you scare someone else. There are certain circumstances you can set the overcurrent device as high as 300%.

Deerlope · Dec 27, 2003

It was not my intention to scare anyone. but tell me this how can a 10 gage wire( rated at 30 amps) draw 50 amps for 1 hour without a melt down? I know that the code is different all over the country and I know that you will never get away with that 50 a bkr. on # 10 wire where I live.

PineRidge · Dec 27, 2003

Number 10 wire is suitable for 30 amp circuits. If you want to run more through it than that at you place then it’s your business. But it isn't happening in my pole barn for any length of time.

I meant only to warn, not to scare.

Junkman · Dec 27, 2003

This is a classic example of what I was referring to when I made the post about "profiles". Here we have a Chief Electrical Inspector quoting directly from the National Electrical Code and two others disagreeing with him. I don't believe that either of the two people that are disagreeing have read his post carefully. He says that it is OK according to the code to use #10 gauge wire with a 50 Amp breaker for a welder. I have just looked it up in the code book and that is correct. I am with the Inspector507 on this one. It is based on the theory that "arc welders are considered intermittent." If you want to read it for yourself, it is pages 785 to 788 of the 1999 National Electrical Code book. The NEC is written by the National Fire Protection Association. I believe that they know what they are doing!!!
The National Electric Code is the accepted standard for most of the United States. I believe that Chicago, IL and Los Angles, Ca are the exception. I know that it is used in all of MA & CT which I am familiar with...

PineRidge · Dec 27, 2003

I don't believe that either of the two people that are disagreeing have read his post carefully. He says that it is OK according to the code to use #10 gauge wire with a 50 Amp breaker for a welder. 

I understand what is being conveyed. But most folks will see that same circuit and say to themselves that if it is OK to use a welder in an overcurrent condition then why can't we plug in our other 220-volt high current tools on the same circuit and get by. Hey the welder worked didn’t it? Sooner or later that 50-amp breaker on a 30-amp circuit catches somebody off guard and there is potential for a fire in that instance. If the welder itself is used exclusively on that one circuit then you have my blessing but if there is a receptacle you know as well as I that a potential exists for an accident down the road. I can just see a new owner looking in a main panel at a 50 amp breaker and thinking that he has a legit 50 amp receptacle to use as he sees fit. But hey these things never happen in real life right? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Inspector507 · Dec 28, 2003

Mike,
I (my profession) can only protect the safety of people so far.

The big issue with a welder is, it will never pull 50 amps for an hour. If you weld for a solid hour, chances are your toasting your welder. The unit needs the 50 Amp breaker for the inrush when you strike the arc. Besides, you need to consider the duty factor of the welder when sizing your overcurrent device. Some welders have a duty factor as low as 20%......meaning out of every minute, you should only run it 12 minutes. That is an extreme yes, but they are out there.

yellowdog99502 · Dec 28, 2003

most folks will see that same circuit and say to themselves that if it is OK to use a welder in an overcurrent condition then why can't we plug in our other 220-volt high current tools on the same circuit and get by. Hey the welder worked didn’t it? "a potential exists" 

PineRidge, you have hit a huge issue that those charged with enforcing our building laws face everyday. We cannot AND must not attempt to enforce codes on the "what-if" philosophy.

Building codes (laws after they are legally adopted) are the minimum standard. Is it permissable to use a #10 wire on a 50 amp circuit for a electric welder, certainly, Section 630 of the 2002 NEC says so. Could you use a #6? Of course. Nothing restricts us from exceeding the code as it is a minimum.

There are a multitude of issues in all of our model codes that tend to confuse the casual user; why do we require a guardrail when the fall height is more than 30 inches? Can not one be hurt just as badly in a fall from 30 inches? Or why is it that the code has established a certain stair geometry for 20 years that, at last count, 38 states promptly amend? Why do some areas require carbon monoxide detectors when others do not?

Rambling again, man I gotta learn to stop that! Building laws are a minimum, as a building official, I would defend Inspector 507 in his citing and application of this code section. There is not a 'just' court in this country that would do otherwise. On the other hand, an inspector who makes up his own rules or writes a correction order based on the possibility that a "potential exists" would get his walking papers. Right or wrong in your mind, we cannot legislate against stupidity or careless actions, we must leave that to Darwin.

Inspector507 · Dec 28, 2003

Don,
I restrained myself in my last post... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I "almost" said.......You can protect the idiots from themselves.

Oh yeah.......thanks for the back-up /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

PineRidge · Dec 28, 2003

Inspector507, I meant no disrespect to you, I hope none was taken.

Inspector507 · Dec 28, 2003

None was taken..... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I didn't intend to be so mean......" Don't scare anyone else "
It does meet code, it is safe as long as the user understands whats it's there for. Now if someone un-knowing plugged a 50 Amp load in there......well Houston we have a problem.
A welder outlet is kinda unique, not many other "appliances" come with that plug configuration on them.

I know ONE thing, but they pay me to know it well /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deerlope · Dec 28, 2003

Inspector;
I have been having trouble all morning trying to login but I got it. I well understand what your are explaining. But I have been taught all my working career that a breaker only protects the wire and not the device. The point that I was trying to make was that if there was a malfunction between the breaker and the outlet that with the 50 amp bkr. and the #10 wire that there would be a problem. Thanks for explaining it so well.

Inspector507 · Dec 28, 2003

If there was a malfunction between the breaker and the equipment.......the breakers short circuit function takes over and kicks it off

TWINKLE_TOES · Dec 30, 2003

Would you approve an installation using a 50Amp breaker and #10 wire, connected to a 50 Amp range outlet? I seriously doubt it.

CTyler · Dec 30, 2003

What is the point of your question?

Junkman · Dec 30, 2003

( What is the point of your question? )

The point of his question is obvious... to annoy Inspector507! If he read the previous posts, and understands the spoken language and the written word, then he knows that it wouldn't be approved because it doesn't meet code. He is just being ludicrous and not even remotely funny in my opinion. However, some people will ask foolish questions knowingly just to see what type of response that they can illicit from the members. This is not a "flame", but merely an observation of the facts as I see them...... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif