Wiring subpanel with a passthrough?

   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #1  

aczlan

Good Morning
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Messages
17,540
Location
Northern Fingerlakes region of NY, USA
Tractor
Kubota L3830GST, B7500HST, BX2660. Formerly: Case 480F LL, David Brown 880UE
Looking at running a 10/3 out to the barn to replace the current 12/2. At the same time, I would like to add outlets in the detached garage (which is currently also serviced by a 12/2 wire).
Can I go to the garage, run the wire into a breaker panel (thinking of a little 2 space 70 amp panel like: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...533505-wiring-sub-panel-hom24l70s_detail1.jpg but wired for 220V) and run (without using a breaker) another line off of the main lugs to continue to the barn?

Would prefer to use a little panel as I will only have 1-2 circuits in the box and wont need a larger panel.

Aaron Z
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #2  
Check the electrical code where you are. In many cases the panel has a ground lug that has to be removed. Also make sure the wire dimension of the first leg is adequate for both load centres the 10/3 is too light for even the 70 amp panel and depending on distances you may also want to go thicker -- JMHO -- your code and electrician may vary.
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough?
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Check the electrical code where you are. In many cases the panel has a ground lug that has to be removed. Also make sure the wire dimension of the first leg is adequate for both load centres the 10/3 is too light for even the 70 amp panel and depending on distances you may also want to go thicker -- JMHO -- your code and electrician may vary.

Will make sure that the neutral and ground are separated in both boxes. That's why I am going to a 10/3 vs a 10/2.
The garage will have 1 or 2 20 amp circuits and a 15 amp lighting circuit. Oonly planning on doing battery charging, running a door opener, etc in there.
The barn will have 3-4 water heaters running in the winter (2-3 buckets and a tank heater) and I hope to have 2 20 amp outlet circuits and a 15 amp light circuit.

The garage is probbaly 75' as the wire runs from the panel and the barn is another 50 feet from the garage.

Aaron Z
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #4  
I have thought about the same thing. I have a sub panel in the basement with an 8-3 feed. I plan to feed a garage off the sub panel with 8-3 and use the same breaker in the main panel for protection. Neither of the panels will have a high current draw and the breaker in the main panel will be rated for the 8-3. Ground and neutral will be kept separate and only tied at the main panel. I have been corrected before, any one see any problems?
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #5  
The problem is you won't have a disconnect on the barn circuit that is within a reasonable distance. Your grounding might be a problem, and your total breaker amperage is limited to the breaker that feeds the your new wire.

It would be better to treat the garage as a sub panel, use your wires as feeders with a 30 amp breaker (10 gauge wire) and have a couple of breakers to feed the barn and garage circuits. You could carry the ground back to the main panel, or better yet, ground the sub panel in the garage.
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough?
  • Thread Starter
#6  
The problem is you won't have a disconnect on the barn circuit that is within a reasonable distance. Your grounding might be a problem, and your total breaker amperage is limited to the breaker that feeds the your new wire. It would be better to treat the garage as a sub panel, use your wires as feeders with a 30 amp breaker (10 gauge wire) and have a couple of breakers to feed the barn and garage circuits.
As I understand it, as long as I have less than 6 circuits in a subpanel, the breakers themselves serve as the disconnect. Here is that stated by MN: http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/handouts/53/53fffdetach.pdf . NY has similar rules.
I could go with a bigger panel, but I dont know that I will ever use more than 20 amps in the garage, so that would be way overkill.

You could carry the ground back to the main panel, or better yet, ground the sub panel in the garage.
There will be separate ground and neutral bars in the box and I will have 2 ground rods at each location that will also be tied into the ground that runs back to the main panel.

Aaron Z
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #7  
Looking at running a 10/3 out to the barn to replace the current 12/2. At the same time, I would like to add outlets in the detached garage (which is currently also serviced by a 12/2 wire).
Can I go to the garage, run the wire into a breaker panel (thinking of a little 2 space 70 amp panel like: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...533505-wiring-sub-panel-hom24l70s_detail1.jpg but wired for 220V) and run (without using a breaker) another line off of the main lugs to continue to the barn?

Would prefer to use a little panel as I will only have 1-2 circuits in the box and wont need a larger panel.

Aaron Z

To properly design this there is more info needed. What is the total distance from your feeding panel to the futhest outlet/lights? Voltage drop may require larger wire than short runs do. #10 may become #8. What is the total connected load of all the heaters, plugs, and lights? You are probably a little short on your ampacity. First thing happens you want to run a saw or grinder out there , the lights and water heaters are on and whoops, breaker pops back at the house panel. Even small water heaters (10 GL) draw almost 20 amps, others on up are 30 A 220, that is your total capacity bthe way you have it.

Get one of those DYI electrical manuals at the big box store, (the DEWALT one is good) and do it right. Follow the instructions for proper grounding procedures. Are any of the buildings steel frame or skin? That has to be grounded at the panel also or the GFCIs won't work. Oh! you did not think of that safety matter.

I am planning on some of the same scenario for my greenhouse. It wll have lights and at least 3 20A circuits and a 30A heater, plus feed a couple other sheds for lights. I am running a #6 to that panel with a 50A two pole main breaker. My main fed out of the garage is a 2" PVC conduit, cheap insurance when I want to add or upgrade as more things develop over time.

Ron
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough?
  • Thread Starter
#8  
To properly design this there is more info needed. What is the total distance from your feeding panel to the futhest outlet/lights? Voltage drop may require larger wire than short runs do. #10 may become #8.
From the panel to the far end of the barn is probbaly 250 or 300 feet, but there wont be much load out there, 3 buckets and a few hundred watts of lights.
What is the total connected load of all the heaters, plugs, and lights? You are probably a little short on your ampacity. First thing happens you want to run a saw or grinder out there , the lights and water heaters are on and whoops, breaker pops back at the house panel. Even small water heaters (10 GL) draw almost 20 amps, others on up are 30 A 220, that is your total capacity bthe way you have it.
I may not have been clear on what the "heaters" are. These are to keep the buckets and water tank from freezing. The tank heater is 1250 watts (this one)and the buckets (these) are 150 or 200 watts each. For lights, there are 8 "floodlights" which each have a florescent floodlight in it (26 watts per bulb)
That all currently runs off of 20 amp circuit that is direct buried and is of questionable quality.

Get one of those DYI electrical manuals at the big box store, (the DEWALT one is good) and do it right. Follow the instructions for proper grounding procedures.
I used to work for an electrician and have worked on systems ranging from replacing a 60 amp fusebox to a business (tanning salon) that had 6 200 amp panels in it. Most anything you would find in that book (other than voltage drop over distance), I can do (my favorite was wiring a room that had 5 doors with 5 switches to control one set of lights, lots of 4 way switches).
Something like this wouldn't be in such a book, so I asked the TBN brain trust.

Are any of the buildings steel frame or skin? That has to be grounded at the panel also or the GFCIs won't work. Oh! you did not think of that safety matter.
Water+Electricity = GFCI. No two ways around it. A frozen tank is easier to deal with than a dead animal or person due to electric shock.
Being as the one metal wall of the barn has the electric fence running next to it, that will be grounded.

I am planning on some of the same scenario for my greenhouse. It wll have lights and at least 3 20A circuits and a 30A heater, plus feed a couple other sheds for lights. I am running a #6 to that panel with a 50A two pole main breaker. My main fed out of the garage is a 2" PVC conduit, cheap insurance when I want to add or upgrade as more things develop over time.
Sounds like fun. I will be running 2" out to the garage to allow for the wire for the generator that will eventually end up out there (connected to the main panel through its own set of wires and an interlock system to prevent backfeeding to the pole), but only 1" to the barn.

Aaron Z
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #9  
From the panel to the far end of the barn is probbaly 250 or 300 feet, but there wont be much load out there, 3 buckets and a few hundred watts of lights.

I may not have been clear on what the "heaters" are. These are to keep the buckets and water tank from freezing. The tank heater is 1250 watts (this one)and the buckets (these) are 150 or 200 watts each. For lights, there are 8 "floodlights" which each have a florescent floodlight in it (26 watts per bulb)
That all currently runs off of 20 amp circuit that is direct buried and is of questionable quality.


I used to work for an electrician and have worked on systems ranging from replacing a 60 amp fusebox to a business (tanning salon) that had 6 200 amp panels in it. Most anything you would find in that book (other than voltage drop over distance), I can do (my favorite was wiring a room that had 5 doors with 5 switches to control one set of lights, lots of 4 way switches).
Something like this wouldn't be in such a book, so I asked the TBN brain trust.


Water+Electricity = GFCI. No two ways around it. A frozen tank is easier to deal with than a dead animal or person due to electric shock.
Being as the one metal wall of the barn has the electric fence running next to it, that will be grounded.


Sounds like fun. I will be running 2" out to the garage to allow for the wire for the generator that will eventually end up out there (connected to the main panel through its own set of wires and an interlock system to prevent backfeeding to the pole), but only 1" to the barn.

Aaron Z

Sounds like you have it wire (no pun intended). Its just that we get so many posts from novices that we tend to treat all that way; sometimes. I have seen some dangerouus schemes posted due to pure lack of knowledge. DYI is rewardibg but can sure get you in a jackpot for the unwary. That is a long distance. Full voltage at the end probably means #8 or #6 for that 30A feeder. I put my Electricalc somewhere and cannot find it.

Ron
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough?
  • Thread Starter
#10  
Sounds like you have it wire (no pun intended). Its just that we get so many posts from novices that we tend to treat all that way; sometimes.
Been there, done that a time or two :D

I have seen some dangerouus schemes posted due to pure lack of knowledge. DYI is rewardibg but can sure get you in a jackpot for the unwary.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...

That is a long distance. Full voltage at the end probably means #8 or #6 for that 30A feeder. I put my Electricalc somewhere and cannot find it.
As long as I can get 10 amps at the end, I should be fine. With 220 to the box in the barn, I plan to put the stock tank heater (~70 feet closer to the panel than the buckets) on one leg and the lighting/buckets on the other to balance the load somewhat.

Aaron Z
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #11  
Well you'll get your full 20A at the end, if that's what you draw. The problem is the loss of voltage, not loss of current. Losing voltage due to the resistance can increase the current draw. Voltage drop is a big problem for motors and sensitive electronics, but not so much for a couple light bulbs and resistance heaters, unless the lights are electronic (like CFLs, perhaps).

Why not just put in a 6-slot subpanel in the garage and run a 20A circuit from there to the barn?
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough?
  • Thread Starter
#12  
Well you'll get your full 20A at the end, if that's what you draw. The problem is the loss of voltage, not loss of current. Losing voltage due to the resistance can increase the current draw. Voltage drop is a big problem for motors and sensitive electronics, but not so much for a couple light bulbs and resistance heaters, unless the lights are electronic (like CFLs, perhaps).
Lights are CFLs, the biggest consistent draw in the barn will be the stock tank heater which is 1250 amps (at the garage end of the barn). Closely following will be the 2-3 buckets using 150-200 watts each (at the far end of the barn). My thinking is that if I have a 30A @ 220V coming into the 2 space panel, I can put in a single and a double, or 2 doubles, then put the stock tank heater on one leg of the 220v and the buckets/general lighting on the other

Why not just put in a 6-slot subpanel in the garage and run a 20A circuit from there to the barn?
What would that gain me over a 70 amp 2 space subpanel in each location? There will be more draw in the barn than in the garage (detached single car garage which will eventually house a generator). If I need to pull serious juice, I have a shop with a 100 amp sub-panel in it to work in. This is just to make it a little more convenient to shut things off in the garage.

Aaron Z
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #13  
I've done it in the past...... See others do it all the time.

Here you are, putting in new wire on top of substandard 12 wire.

You go through the fuss and time of 'upgrading'.

And your upgrade is - one wire size? To just barely handle the loads you are using today. But just barely.

Your only extra cost in this to do it right is buy a fatter wire. You alreday got all the other set costs of the job.

Why oh why would you carefully count out every watt, and figure your job to just get by?

So you can redo the job again in 2 years, when you realize you need to run some real electric in your barn? When you need to run a calf warmer, or - something.

Why wouldn't person run the wire to feed 50-60 amps to the far building, and have a good job?

To save a couple cents on the wire.

So a person can do it all over again in a couple years, then you got both 12 and 10 gauge wire rotting away, time & money wasted, redoing this a third time.....

I'm a cheap guy, raised by a German penny pincher, tightest person I ever knew. I understand where you are coming from.

But.... Give it some thought? Are you really improving anything? Do you really know what you need down in the far building 3 years from now?

Think that is what others are kinda hinting at here.

An example. In the 1950's dad put an 8 inch drainage tile out to a neighbor's field. The neighbor added on to that tile, and so his water drained down into dad's field, and couldn't go away fast enough, so dad ened up with no gain - field still flooded out.

So he ran a 10 inch tile to his wet spot in the 1960's. That worked until the 1970's.

Then the neighbor and another neighbor hooked up more tile to the old 8 inch line, and it brought so much water down into dad's low field, it again flooded out. Even the 10 inch line couldn't pull water away fast enough.

So last year, a 3rd neighbor over that way talked about tiling and adding on.

I said fine, I'm all for it, but this time the tile will be big enough, period, or we don't do it at all.

So we put in a 15 inch tile through most of my land, and a 12 inch up to his.

This means the 8 inch, 10 iinch, and 15 inch alla re running within 50 feet of each other off in that direction.

Dad could get tiling done for a few cents a foot back then, and a dime a foot the second time.

Neighbor & I spent $19,000 going 2400 feet.

Sure wish dad had put in a bigger tile back when. We'd have had better crops, more yield, all these years as well. And he coulda done it so much cheaper....

This 15/12 inch line is set up big nough to drain all 200 acres that channel in this direction. Period. There is another neighbor wanting to hook on - we planned for that. This time. Only took dad/me 3 tries to get this figured out....

Another example - I got building with 20 amp fuse. Parked both my diesel tractors by it one nite, next morning wife & I wanted to go stalk chopping and plowing, had to plug them both in, 1200 watt heater on each. well, that didn't work, my brain wasn't thinking - came back an hour later and everything was still cold, fuse blown. Now what, new fuse, plug in one for an hour, then plug in the other for an hour, wasted a whole morning on that silliness. 20 amp is a joke in today's world.

What are you planning for? With 10 wire at 125 feet???? What's your future? One doesn't do a remodel for the curent needs, one plans for the future on a bigger projct like this.

Why aren't you running wire to go with a 50 amp box out at the far end?

Don't mean to be hard on you, I understand budget, I understand needing to keep costs down, and this is your deal. Only want to make you think a bit? :)

--->Paul
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough? #14  
Concur with Rambler. I recently installed a sub panel for my shop and in the end i was able to buy 4 individual strands of #6 wire for less than i could have gotten 10-3 for, and in the end have a much better and safer sub panel set up.

I would calculate and run the wire to the barn to support a 40 or 60 amp sub panel in the barn, even if you never use the full 60 amps capacity it is better and safer than possibly constantly maxing out your 20 amp line. One craftsman air compressor and one of your water heaters will trip a 20 amp line.
 
   / Wiring subpanel with a passthrough?
  • Thread Starter
#15  
I've done it in the past...... See others do it all the time.
Here you are, putting in new wire on top of substandard 12 wire.
You go through the fuss and time of 'upgrading'.
And your upgrade is - one wire size? To just barely handle the loads you are using today. But just barely.
Your only extra cost in this to do it right is buy a fatter wire. You alreday got all the other set costs of the job.
Why oh why would you carefully count out every watt, and figure your job to just get by?
So you can redo the job again in 2 years, when you realize you need to run some real electric in your barn? When you need to run a calf warmer, or - something.
Why wouldn't person run the wire to feed 50-60 amps to the far building, and have a good job?
To save a couple cents on the wire.
So a person can do it all over again in a couple years, then you got both 12 and 10 gauge wire rotting away, time & money wasted, redoing this a third time.....
<snip/>
What are you planning for? With 10 wire at 125 feet???? What's your future? One doesn't do a remodel for the curent needs, one plans for the future on a bigger projct like this.
Why aren't you running wire to go with a 50 amp box out at the far end?
Don't mean to be hard on you, I understand budget, I understand needing to keep costs down, and this is your deal. Only want to make you think a bit? :)
l
First off, I am going from 20 amps @110v available (which is adequate for the current and probably near term future needs), to 30 amps@220v (ie: 60 amps @110v) available. I understand not cheaping out, but this barn will be used for hay storage, horses at the far end and possibly feeding cows once the horses pass on. 60 amps at 110v should be more then enough to handle future growth.

Concur with Rambler. I recently installed a sub panel for my shop and in the end i was able to buy 4 individual strands of #6 wire for less than i could have gotten 10-3 for, and in the end have a much better and safer sub panel set up.
I will look at prices. #10 THWN will be cheaper than #6 THWN, so I am not sure how much I would be able to save.

I would calculate and run the wire to the barn to support a 40 or 60 amp sub panel in the barn, even if you never use the full 60 amps capacity it is better and safer than possibly constantly maxing out your 20 amp line.
Again. There is CURRENTLY a single 20 amp 110v line going to the barn and another going to the garage (which runs 1 100w bulb), I am going to replace them with a 30 amp 220v line and run 2-3 15 or 20 amp circuits inside the barn.

One craftsman air compressor and one of your water heaters will trip a 20 amp line.
I have a shop 100' past the barn which has 100 amps at the subpanel. That is where my (non-craftsman, belt driven, oiled, quiet) air compressor will be running.

Re safety: Please explain to me how a 6 space subpanel on an appropriate breaker for the wire used will be safer than a 2 space subpanel on an appropriate breaker for the wire used... I do not see how there will be any difference in safety as long as I am within the limits of the wire and the breakers...

Aaron Z
 

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